Virgin Pilot held on Drink allegations
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Europe
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aircrew & Alcohol related detention
I would ask those contributing to bear the following in mind.
The Captain of the recent BA Oslo incident was hounded by the press for 11 days. The media were camped outside his house for the entire duration until his blood test returned with a result of zero alcohol in his blood, therefore no more headlines - story over. By this time the pressure was so intense he had resigned.
I would hope that those who are aware of this pilot's identity refrain from revealing it.
The Captain of the recent BA Oslo incident was hounded by the press for 11 days. The media were camped outside his house for the entire duration until his blood test returned with a result of zero alcohol in his blood, therefore no more headlines - story over. By this time the pressure was so intense he had resigned.
I would hope that those who are aware of this pilot's identity refrain from revealing it.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Timbuktu
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
until his blood test returned with a result of zero alcohol in his blood
So why hasn't THAT been publicised a little more? There wasn't a mention of it, even here, until you just made that post!
Where do you get your information? If this is true it needs to be highlighted a bit more, don't you think!
I'm just an interested passenger so I can't really understand this issue even arising. The question I asked on a similar topic about a BA pilot a few weeks ago was never really answered so here goes again.....
IF this chap is guilty - or just thinking about other proven cases in the past - the crews concerned must be aware that they are over the limit.
The limit is so low that if a security guard or anybody else for that matter suspects they have been drinking then they surely must be well over the very low tolerance levels allowed. Why don't they just call in sick?
OK, this would cause serious hassle for all concerned arranging a relief crew etc and delayed departures, but holding up in a hotel room for a few hours must be referable to throwing it all away? I know this would be dishonest but surely it's better than losing your job, possibly a lifetimes work or worse.
IF this chap is guilty - or just thinking about other proven cases in the past - the crews concerned must be aware that they are over the limit.
The limit is so low that if a security guard or anybody else for that matter suspects they have been drinking then they surely must be well over the very low tolerance levels allowed. Why don't they just call in sick?
OK, this would cause serious hassle for all concerned arranging a relief crew etc and delayed departures, but holding up in a hotel room for a few hours must be referable to throwing it all away? I know this would be dishonest but surely it's better than losing your job, possibly a lifetimes work or worse.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: _
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Coconuts
Why have you already decided the pilot is guilty? Not only that, you think all of us are drunks staggering from airport bar to airport bar. I can appreciate you having your own opinion but you have to have at least some support for what you say. Just because you say something doesn't make it so. Maybe you have a bone to pick with a particular pilot? If so, please know that there are those of us who are responsible and who respect the trust the passengers put in us.
peace
Why have you already decided the pilot is guilty? Not only that, you think all of us are drunks staggering from airport bar to airport bar. I can appreciate you having your own opinion but you have to have at least some support for what you say. Just because you say something doesn't make it so. Maybe you have a bone to pick with a particular pilot? If so, please know that there are those of us who are responsible and who respect the trust the passengers put in us.
peace
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Pilot Suspected of Drinking
Virgin Atlantic Aviator Held; Dulles-London Flight Canceled
By Clarence Williams and Martin Weil
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, December 20, 2003; Page B01
A pilot for Virgin Atlantic Airways was detained at Dulles International Airport for a possible drinking violation last night, shortly before he was to fly almost 400 passengers to London, authorities said.
"One of our pilots has been detained by the Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority police on suspicion of being under the influence of alcohol," said John Riordan, a spokesman for Virgin Atlantic.
Amy von Walter, a spokeswoman for the Transportation Security Administration, said a screener did "detect the smell of alcohol" at an airport checkpoint.
The pilot proceeded to the cockpit of the 747, where airline officials confronted him, then asked police to remove him, an airports authority spokeswoman said.
FAA regulations prohibit consumption of alcohol within eight hours of flying, an FAA spokesman said. He said the blood alcohol limit is 0.04.
The pilot's name could not be learned, and no information about his background was available. Late last night, the airports authority spokeswoman said that the pilot was being detained while an investigation was pursued but that no charges had been filed. The airline said the pilot had been suspended.
The flight was canceled before passengers boarded, and hotel accommodations were found for them. A replacement pilot was expected to fly them to London today, the airline spokesman said.
"We're all very upset," said passenger Martin Kind of Annapolis. He said that his wife and son were in London and that he had planned to join them there today. "Now I'm going to have to schlep all the way back to Annapolis or stay in the hotel."
Referring to the pilot, Kind asked, "What was he thinking?"
FAA and airline spokesmen said incidents such as last night's are rare. Riordan called passenger safety and security the airline's "number one priority" and said Virgin Atlantic followed a "strict no-alcohol policy."
Riordan said the flight, designated as VS 022, was scheduled to leave at 7:30 p.m., with 383 passengers -- almost a full load. The airliner was to land at 7:05 a.m.
Riordan said Virgin's duty manager at Dulles told the passengers the reason for the flight's cancellation.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Dec20.html
Virgin Atlantic Aviator Held; Dulles-London Flight Canceled
By Clarence Williams and Martin Weil
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, December 20, 2003; Page B01
A pilot for Virgin Atlantic Airways was detained at Dulles International Airport for a possible drinking violation last night, shortly before he was to fly almost 400 passengers to London, authorities said.
"One of our pilots has been detained by the Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority police on suspicion of being under the influence of alcohol," said John Riordan, a spokesman for Virgin Atlantic.
Amy von Walter, a spokeswoman for the Transportation Security Administration, said a screener did "detect the smell of alcohol" at an airport checkpoint.
The pilot proceeded to the cockpit of the 747, where airline officials confronted him, then asked police to remove him, an airports authority spokeswoman said.
FAA regulations prohibit consumption of alcohol within eight hours of flying, an FAA spokesman said. He said the blood alcohol limit is 0.04.
The pilot's name could not be learned, and no information about his background was available. Late last night, the airports authority spokeswoman said that the pilot was being detained while an investigation was pursued but that no charges had been filed. The airline said the pilot had been suspended.
The flight was canceled before passengers boarded, and hotel accommodations were found for them. A replacement pilot was expected to fly them to London today, the airline spokesman said.
"We're all very upset," said passenger Martin Kind of Annapolis. He said that his wife and son were in London and that he had planned to join them there today. "Now I'm going to have to schlep all the way back to Annapolis or stay in the hotel."
Referring to the pilot, Kind asked, "What was he thinking?"
FAA and airline spokesmen said incidents such as last night's are rare. Riordan called passenger safety and security the airline's "number one priority" and said Virgin Atlantic followed a "strict no-alcohol policy."
Riordan said the flight, designated as VS 022, was scheduled to leave at 7:30 p.m., with 383 passengers -- almost a full load. The airliner was to land at 7:05 a.m.
Riordan said Virgin's duty manager at Dulles told the passengers the reason for the flight's cancellation.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Dec20.html
Moderator
Join Date: Apr 1998
Location: err, *******, we have a problem
Age: 58
Posts: 1,335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Time and events overtook me on this post, hence the edit from my original.... I would request that people do not debate using information they have about this gentleman, as that may be prejudicial to his case and bring unnecessary distress to his family and friends. Remember; innocent until proven guilty. Debate generics by all means, and aspects of the case that are relevant, but please leave the personal for elsewhere.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Last edited by Sick Squid; 21st Dec 2003 at 00:07.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West Country
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sick Squid
As this poor guys name is plastered over practicaly every news site on the net, is it not a bit pointless to try and keep it secret on this site?
No. The fundamental difference on this site is that people can post with knowledge of the person, both with good intentions and with bad, as happened recently following the last allegations. Keeping the debate generic respects the gentleman's right to privacy and a fair hearing, and as a fellow pilot we owe him that even if other medias do not have that respect.
As this poor guys name is plastered over practicaly every news site on the net, is it not a bit pointless to try and keep it secret on this site?
No. The fundamental difference on this site is that people can post with knowledge of the person, both with good intentions and with bad, as happened recently following the last allegations. Keeping the debate generic respects the gentleman's right to privacy and a fair hearing, and as a fellow pilot we owe him that even if other medias do not have that respect.
Last edited by Sick Squid; 20th Dec 2003 at 23:51.
...the thin end thereof
Join Date: Jun 1998
Location: London
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
He has now been charged by the Police in Washington with attempting to operate an aircraft while intoxicated which would suggest there is a reasonable body of evidence against him.
I agree Jet II, he has been named now by the BBC and is named in the links to news stories above, but if the moderators have requested he not be named he then that should be respected.
Hey, coconuts; have you never driven more than 30mph in a built up area?
I have, I do all the time, but I can't see how that is a comparable offence to turning up to fly a large passenger jet drunk.
Note: Notwithstanding the above, I am not presuming that this man is guilty. According to Virgin, he has been with the airline 14 years and has an unblemished record.
I agree Jet II, he has been named now by the BBC and is named in the links to news stories above, but if the moderators have requested he not be named he then that should be respected.
Hey, coconuts; have you never driven more than 30mph in a built up area?
I have, I do all the time, but I can't see how that is a comparable offence to turning up to fly a large passenger jet drunk.
Note: Notwithstanding the above, I am not presuming that this man is guilty. According to Virgin, he has been with the airline 14 years and has an unblemished record.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Nova
Posts: 1,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Only a question, but who can tell me, how many airline accidents have been CAUSED by drunken pilots?
More to the point, how many have been caused by pilots with 0.2 or 0.4 pro mill readings?
Fatigue is a FAR more significant factor than these levels of alcohol.
But of course politicians don't tighten the rules regarding fatigue, they slacken them. Fatigue is not easily tested, nor smelled on the breath, and airlines seem to want ever more work from fewer and fewer pilots!
Let's get these issues in perspective!
More to the point, how many have been caused by pilots with 0.2 or 0.4 pro mill readings?
Fatigue is a FAR more significant factor than these levels of alcohol.
But of course politicians don't tighten the rules regarding fatigue, they slacken them. Fatigue is not easily tested, nor smelled on the breath, and airlines seem to want ever more work from fewer and fewer pilots!
Let's get these issues in perspective!
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: The Shadows
Posts: 202
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While I can see Sick Squids point, Jet II has a valid one as well.
However...Took me 3 clicks from this page to find the guys name out. So if you really have to know, then it's out there on every other news site for all to find and therefore no real need to put it on here I guess.
I'm just amazed that Virgin pilots drink as well, I thought everyone else was T total apart for BA crews, however the papers still manage to put BA back in the spotlight in their articles. As has been said on here as well, forgetting to include the fact that people have been vindicated.
Todays papers... tommorrows trash.
However...Took me 3 clicks from this page to find the guys name out. So if you really have to know, then it's out there on every other news site for all to find and therefore no real need to put it on here I guess.
I'm just amazed that Virgin pilots drink as well, I thought everyone else was T total apart for BA crews, however the papers still manage to put BA back in the spotlight in their articles. As has been said on here as well, forgetting to include the fact that people have been vindicated.
Todays papers... tommorrows trash.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On another tack: it does seem a pity that the passengers are subjected to such a long delay and Virgin incurs extra costs. Airlines have reciprocal technical agreements. Here comes a naïve question: — at a large airport like Washington would it be totally impossible to have a crewing arrangement which would allow for a type-rated replacement before the rest of the crew are out of hours? Does this already happen (but was not possible in this case)?
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Broadmoor
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The recent stranded Virgin passengers in Miami suffered the same fate....are tonights crew due for a slagging off as they walk to the gate....or will a "free" ticket cool them off.
You would think that economics would dictate a "standby crew"
on the East Coast within 3 hours of most Virgin locations.
You would think that economics would dictate a "standby crew"
on the East Coast within 3 hours of most Virgin locations.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
sorry to hear it, here goes the press again !
tried and convicted and you just know the lawyers are going to have a field day,
what with old miss's smith being so traumatised that she barely goes out anymore ! - ' maybe a stress payout will help her confront the terrible nightmares she is now suffering !!!
if the individual is guilty well he has no place in flying but we don't know that yet.
The press would be better off having a look at night operations where crews are so tired they are falling asleep.
Alot more common but hey doesn't fall under that big political umbrella called 'enhanced security' and therefore little less headline grabbing !
tried and convicted and you just know the lawyers are going to have a field day,
what with old miss's smith being so traumatised that she barely goes out anymore ! - ' maybe a stress payout will help her confront the terrible nightmares she is now suffering !!!
if the individual is guilty well he has no place in flying but we don't know that yet.
The press would be better off having a look at night operations where crews are so tired they are falling asleep.
Alot more common but hey doesn't fall under that big political umbrella called 'enhanced security' and therefore little less headline grabbing !
Last edited by miss d point; 21st Dec 2003 at 00:44.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Languedoc
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hang on a minute!
Ladies and Gentlemen, please!
Could we perhaps refrain from reaching for the rope long enough to examine the human factors aspects of this report? Rather than the presumption of guilt, we would do well to reflect on the nature of long haul operations, and the ever increasing commercial pressure applied to these pilots that lend themselves to uncharacteristic behavior.
Rest periods are minimised to the letter of the law and time off between rotations is becoming less and less, its no wonder that people make judgmental errors.
Without prejudice to the Virgin Captain, and with a raised eyebrow as to the appropriateness of security staff making unqualified judgments as to the fitness for flight of professional airmen, I would suggest that regulatory scrutiny be applied in the first instance to the pilots duty hours for the preceding months, and the number of time zones and prime REM sleep period violations he’s be forced by his employer to endure.
We’re human beings, not robots.
Could we perhaps refrain from reaching for the rope long enough to examine the human factors aspects of this report? Rather than the presumption of guilt, we would do well to reflect on the nature of long haul operations, and the ever increasing commercial pressure applied to these pilots that lend themselves to uncharacteristic behavior.
Rest periods are minimised to the letter of the law and time off between rotations is becoming less and less, its no wonder that people make judgmental errors.
Without prejudice to the Virgin Captain, and with a raised eyebrow as to the appropriateness of security staff making unqualified judgments as to the fitness for flight of professional airmen, I would suggest that regulatory scrutiny be applied in the first instance to the pilots duty hours for the preceding months, and the number of time zones and prime REM sleep period violations he’s be forced by his employer to endure.
We’re human beings, not robots.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maxalt
I can categorically tell you that Captain McAuliffe's blood test returned negative. However this was not reported by the scum at the tabloid press. He resigned because he is a highly decent honourable man.
With that in mind why don't the sad little people on here who are so quick to condemn wind their necks in.
Just because the Virgin Captain has been charged doesn't mean he's guilty of an accusation by someone who could earn more at McDonalds.
However I suppose you haven't got anything better to do.
I can categorically tell you that Captain McAuliffe's blood test returned negative. However this was not reported by the scum at the tabloid press. He resigned because he is a highly decent honourable man.
With that in mind why don't the sad little people on here who are so quick to condemn wind their necks in.
Just because the Virgin Captain has been charged doesn't mean he's guilty of an accusation by someone who could earn more at McDonalds.
However I suppose you haven't got anything better to do.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Shannon
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BoeingMEL, are you some sort of lowlife that writes for the tabloid press?
Who the ffuk do you think you are casting aspertions on a highly respectable professional who has been found to have had 0 - ZERO alcohol upon testing?
And what exactly do you mean by this fact being "... VERY different to the events which were reliably relayed elsewhere"?
Reliable - Where?
Elsewhere?
Who the ffuk do you think you are casting aspertions on a highly respectable professional who has been found to have had 0 - ZERO alcohol upon testing?
And what exactly do you mean by this fact being "... VERY different to the events which were reliably relayed elsewhere"?
Reliable - Where?
Elsewhere?
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: western europe
Posts: 1,367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if you are prosecuted for Drink/Driving in a car you will probably screw up your life for a year or so .......
if you get caught drink/driving an aircraft (or attempting to do so) you are probably going to screw up your life for good !!!!
My brother in Law has his own rule ....... 24hrs before a trip - absolutely zero Alcohol !!!!! ..... no exceptions - period !!!!
it sounds tough but it works ....
if you get caught drink/driving an aircraft (or attempting to do so) you are probably going to screw up your life for good !!!!
My brother in Law has his own rule ....... 24hrs before a trip - absolutely zero Alcohol !!!!! ..... no exceptions - period !!!!
it sounds tough but it works ....
Guest
Posts: n/a
Although I have no view on the Virgin incident - the Police etc will do whatever they do in cases like this and I hope that the allegations are shown to be groundless and then given the same level of media coverage - I do have an interest in aviation and alcohol.
In the UK there is now legislation that sets absolute limits for the amount of alcohol in blood for people involved in operating, maintaining or controlling aircraft. The CAA recently published the following words
Assuming this to be correct (it comes from GASIL), and in the interests of accuracy, claims that anyone's blood/alcohol result is zero must be suspect.
In the UK there is now legislation that sets absolute limits for the amount of alcohol in blood for people involved in operating, maintaining or controlling aircraft. The CAA recently published the following words
The “prescribed limit” for a maintenance engineer is the same as for a driver on the road, at 80 milligrams of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood. However, the limit for those in categories 1 to 3 is a mere 20 milligrams per 100 millilitres. The human body manufactures its own alcohol, and it is possible for the level of that ‘self manufactured’ alcohol to almost reach that 20 milligram level, so it would be prudent for anyone who is subject to the Act to think of the permitted level as equating to no consumed alcohol at all.
Death Cruiser Flight Crew
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Vaucluse, France.
Posts: 613
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For those of us who belong to BALPA (The British Air Line Pilots Association) the house journal 'The Log' thudded on the doormat this week. On page 23, in the General Flight Safety News section, under the heading 'Alcohol Testing in the USA', it details with chilling accuracy, the procedure which would appear to have been followed in this instance.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Yep, drug and alcohol testing, still somewhat novel in the UK, has been the norm in the US for years now. Under our system, the alcohol limits for mechanics, flight attendants and dispatchers are the same as for pilots (.02% removal from duty, .04% loss of license and major legal woes).
Also, under our system, if you apply for rehab, it does seem to give you some legal protection.
In the recent America West incident in MIA, the pilots jumped bail to go to rehab right away. It annoyed the judge but they were later able to cop a walk on some of the more serious criminal charges (see: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines ).
Also, under our system, if you apply for rehab, it does seem to give you some legal protection.
In the recent America West incident in MIA, the pilots jumped bail to go to rehab right away. It annoyed the judge but they were later able to cop a walk on some of the more serious criminal charges (see: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines ).