DAT's Future Still Cloudy
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: UK
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
circle2land, which month of which year do you refer to? Yhe last month having a 16th on a Friday was November...
Anyway, the grapevine has a leak and shows a money injection to DAT from the Government...via BIAC as a potential shareholder.
Watch this space!
Anyway, the grapevine has a leak and shows a money injection to DAT from the Government...via BIAC as a potential shareholder.
Watch this space!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well, peeps, VG Airlines just gets more and more bizzare.
At a press conference on Friday, Freddy van Gaever said that he had no intention of putting together a business plan, saying: "businessplans are for people who not know their market and who are not sure about, believe and conviced in their own goals and targets. Setting up a businessplan costs millions of francs; wasted money."
Unfortunately for him, business plans are a definite requirement under EU law (see EEC Council Regulation 2407/92 - Article 5 is the relevant one. Without a business plan, you don't get an Operating Licence. Without an operating licence, you don't fly.
Notwithstanding the minor problem of the business plan, he then says that if the government don't give him his licences by the 15th January, he's going to stage a rally in Brussels. De Standaard (This is in Dutch - you'll need to scroll down until you see the article on VG Airlines, then click on it).
Getting an AOC and Operating Licence in the UK is a process that generally takes a minimum of six to nine months - especially if you want to operate large aircraft outside the EU. In addition, you need to apply for a DOT402 from the US authorities to operate there - and that's something you can only do once you have your AOC and OL in place.
The Standaard article makes incredible reading. For example, the airline's FFP will revolve around photos of his grandkids (I kid you not!
:rolleyes 
- you get a pic of his eldest one, Emily, whenever you fly business class; and one of his second grand child, Michael, in Economy. Save up five of those, and you get a free ticket!
He also labours under the misapprehension that you can buy existing AOCs from companies that have gone bust. First, he wanted Sabena's - now he's reported to want CityBird's. CTB's has been formally revoked as the company is in liquidation; and I believe that SN's has as well. In any case, the only way that he could get his hands on either of them - assuming they are still 'live' - is to buy the companies that hold them. That, in turn, means making a settlement with all the creditors.
However, our Freddy doesn't let a small matter like that faze him:
It even seems now that Novair are denying that there is any lease agreement between the companies - saying that the VG team consisting of Freddy van Gaever and former SN chief pilot Raymond Nicolai - merely "looked at the aircraft" and that in any case they only have one aircraft surplus to requirements; not two.
Van Gaever says that he's be starting to accept reservations from the 11th January through a call centre in Flanders; and that he will be performing a series of charters in February. However, he has not put in place any agreements for a CRS/GDS system; nor does he have membership of BSP to allow him to sell through the travel trade.
This coming week, he intends to put in place codeshares with VLM (the airline he founded) and VEX to feed his new operation.
So - no aircraft, no AOC, no OL, no DOT402, no ICH/BSP membership - and no business plan!! Does this clown really expect us to believe that he's serious about this?
At a press conference on Friday, Freddy van Gaever said that he had no intention of putting together a business plan, saying: "businessplans are for people who not know their market and who are not sure about, believe and conviced in their own goals and targets. Setting up a businessplan costs millions of francs; wasted money."
Unfortunately for him, business plans are a definite requirement under EU law (see EEC Council Regulation 2407/92 - Article 5 is the relevant one. Without a business plan, you don't get an Operating Licence. Without an operating licence, you don't fly.
Notwithstanding the minor problem of the business plan, he then says that if the government don't give him his licences by the 15th January, he's going to stage a rally in Brussels. De Standaard (This is in Dutch - you'll need to scroll down until you see the article on VG Airlines, then click on it).
Getting an AOC and Operating Licence in the UK is a process that generally takes a minimum of six to nine months - especially if you want to operate large aircraft outside the EU. In addition, you need to apply for a DOT402 from the US authorities to operate there - and that's something you can only do once you have your AOC and OL in place.
The Standaard article makes incredible reading. For example, the airline's FFP will revolve around photos of his grandkids (I kid you not!
:rolleyes - you get a pic of his eldest one, Emily, whenever you fly business class; and one of his second grand child, Michael, in Economy. Save up five of those, and you get a free ticket!
: Catering, entertainment aan boord -- met Martin De Jonghe -- satelliettelevisie en internettoegang, zelfs aan een frequent flyer- programma heeft de zakenman gedacht. ,,Het eerste vliegtuig doop ik Emily, naar mijn kleindochter. Het tweede wordt Michael, naar mijn tweede kleinkind dat mijn dochter verwacht voor volgende week. Elke passagier krijgt bij een vlucht een foto, van Emily in business, van Michael in economy. Wie vijf fotootjes voorlegt, vliegt eenmaal gratis.
However, our Freddy doesn't let a small matter like that faze him:
Mijn vlieglicentie (AOC) wil ik voor 15 januari, alle wettelijke vereisten van mijn kant zullen volgende week rond zijn. Indien dat niet kan, organiseer ik een mars in Brussel. De enkele tientallen piloten en de ruim honderd cabinepersoneelsleden die ik aanwerf, zullen zeker meedoen.
Van Gaever says that he's be starting to accept reservations from the 11th January through a call centre in Flanders; and that he will be performing a series of charters in February. However, he has not put in place any agreements for a CRS/GDS system; nor does he have membership of BSP to allow him to sell through the travel trade.
This coming week, he intends to put in place codeshares with VLM (the airline he founded) and VEX to feed his new operation.
So - no aircraft, no AOC, no OL, no DOT402, no ICH/BSP membership - and no business plan!! Does this clown really expect us to believe that he's serious about this?
Guest
Posts: n/a
maxalt - Freddy may like to "wing it" as you say, but the rules still apply. Those include obtaining an AOC and an OL - which in turn includes producing a business plan - before you can apply for a DOT402. All that is a 12 month process. For him to say that he wants it within a month is laughable - and all the more so if he refuses to play by the rules!
Latest installment on the DAT saga from ATWOnline:
Latest installment on the DAT saga from ATWOnline:
New DAT's funding unraveling
Dateline: Monday December 17, 2001
New DAT's future is looking increasingly bleak after a critical piece of its jigsaw-style financing plan fell through late last week.
Air Holding, the investor group led by Etienne Davignon and Maurice Lippens, could raise only eur177 million ($157.5 million), slightly more than half of the planned eur295 million. Sabena Interservices Center withdrew its restructuring plan at a court hearing in Brussels Thursday--a new hearing is slated for tomorrow--and therefore did not commit the eur100 million ($89 million) foreseen for DAT. The Flemish government has remained firm in its refusal to invest in the carrier.
New DAT was scheduled for launch Dec. 19. It needs at least eur415 million to fly to 35 European, seven African and two US destinations. To survive a "worst case scenario" and still be profitable by 2006 it needs eur505 million, Arthur D. Little said last week (ATWOnline, Dec. 12).
Dateline: Monday December 17, 2001
New DAT's future is looking increasingly bleak after a critical piece of its jigsaw-style financing plan fell through late last week.
Air Holding, the investor group led by Etienne Davignon and Maurice Lippens, could raise only eur177 million ($157.5 million), slightly more than half of the planned eur295 million. Sabena Interservices Center withdrew its restructuring plan at a court hearing in Brussels Thursday--a new hearing is slated for tomorrow--and therefore did not commit the eur100 million ($89 million) foreseen for DAT. The Flemish government has remained firm in its refusal to invest in the carrier.
New DAT was scheduled for launch Dec. 19. It needs at least eur415 million to fly to 35 European, seven African and two US destinations. To survive a "worst case scenario" and still be profitable by 2006 it needs eur505 million, Arthur D. Little said last week (ATWOnline, Dec. 12).
Guest
Posts: n/a
The latest on 'New Sabena' from a poster on Airliners.net who apparently works for the Belgian Central Bank...
Seems that after the technical problems Davignon ran into on December 13th with SIC (which managed to buy some extra time only thanks to a clever technical intervention of its lawyers and the presiding judge), this belgian nobleman and head of the Air Holding NV/SA has not sat still; in fact it seems he has even made a big step forward yesterday evening!
After very difficult negociations with the SIC creditors over the weekend, Lippens and Davignon have finally managed to secure a dubble majority (i.e. half of the SIC creditors representing half of the credits) as required under Belgian law for a recovery plan for SIC!
This updated plan does no longer call for a real cash investment of 100 million euro from SIC in dat+ (on request of the creditors) but rather clears dat of a similar amount of depts towards SIC.
In both cases the result is the same for dat and the SIC creditors (which will lose 100 million euro), but for the SIC creditors it means they can now book this 100 million euro as money lost (i.e. deductable from their taxes in their countries of origin).
With the new recovery plan accepted by the required dubble majority of creditors, it is highly unlikely that SIC will not be granted a permanent (18 month) protection from other creditors on December 18th by Mrs. Spiritus. As you know, the survival of SIC is a cornerstone in the plans of Davignon-Lippens to permit the expansion of dat into dat+.
Also, I can assure you (ex officio) that over the past week the Flemish government has been put under very high pressure to reconsider its decission not to invest in dat+. Naturally, because they do not want to give the impression they have made a U-turn after their initial refusal based on an (questionable) advice of the Flemish auditor of finances, they have now engaged an 'independent' auditor to give them a new (more positive) advice with which they will justify their investment.
Finally, the full Lippens-Davignon plan has unoffically been presented to the EU commission during the summit in Laken last weekend and I can confirm that it has been verbally discussed with and aproved by a senior EU advisor to Mrs. De Palacio! I must say that he didn’t like the idea too much of BIAC and Belgocontrol (2 state controlled holdings) being part of the private investors, but he said he would not oppose to it as the overall public presence will not exceed 50%.
He also verbally agreed to a new long term state loan to pay back the short term bridging loan, because the bridging loan clearly only permitted to start a new company and the new loan is a purely economical issue, although the fact that the EU commission (alarmed by the very negative public opinion in several EU member states including Belgium after the way in which they helped old Sabena going under) does not want to be seen as guilty of the premature dead of the new Belgian national carrier and the subsequent unemployment of yet another additional 3,000 to 6,000 people.
Finally, some more semi-offical news:
Seems the Newco (temporarily called dat+)will be built around 2 separate entities:
One for European operations, based on the current dat, and one for intercontinental operations. The advantage of this is that EU competition rules will not apply so stricly to intercontinental flights as the free common market philosophy is less introduced there, so limited and indirect government support could be tolerated in the future too. (cfr. Air France and Air Lib and the French overseas territories.)
The new name of dat would be:
Sabena Europe,
whereas the name of the intercontinental part of the Newco is going to be:
New Sabena
Logo and livery would most certainly be preserved too
After very difficult negociations with the SIC creditors over the weekend, Lippens and Davignon have finally managed to secure a dubble majority (i.e. half of the SIC creditors representing half of the credits) as required under Belgian law for a recovery plan for SIC!
This updated plan does no longer call for a real cash investment of 100 million euro from SIC in dat+ (on request of the creditors) but rather clears dat of a similar amount of depts towards SIC.
In both cases the result is the same for dat and the SIC creditors (which will lose 100 million euro), but for the SIC creditors it means they can now book this 100 million euro as money lost (i.e. deductable from their taxes in their countries of origin).
With the new recovery plan accepted by the required dubble majority of creditors, it is highly unlikely that SIC will not be granted a permanent (18 month) protection from other creditors on December 18th by Mrs. Spiritus. As you know, the survival of SIC is a cornerstone in the plans of Davignon-Lippens to permit the expansion of dat into dat+.
Also, I can assure you (ex officio) that over the past week the Flemish government has been put under very high pressure to reconsider its decission not to invest in dat+. Naturally, because they do not want to give the impression they have made a U-turn after their initial refusal based on an (questionable) advice of the Flemish auditor of finances, they have now engaged an 'independent' auditor to give them a new (more positive) advice with which they will justify their investment.
Finally, the full Lippens-Davignon plan has unoffically been presented to the EU commission during the summit in Laken last weekend and I can confirm that it has been verbally discussed with and aproved by a senior EU advisor to Mrs. De Palacio! I must say that he didn’t like the idea too much of BIAC and Belgocontrol (2 state controlled holdings) being part of the private investors, but he said he would not oppose to it as the overall public presence will not exceed 50%.
He also verbally agreed to a new long term state loan to pay back the short term bridging loan, because the bridging loan clearly only permitted to start a new company and the new loan is a purely economical issue, although the fact that the EU commission (alarmed by the very negative public opinion in several EU member states including Belgium after the way in which they helped old Sabena going under) does not want to be seen as guilty of the premature dead of the new Belgian national carrier and the subsequent unemployment of yet another additional 3,000 to 6,000 people.
Finally, some more semi-offical news:
Seems the Newco (temporarily called dat+)will be built around 2 separate entities:
One for European operations, based on the current dat, and one for intercontinental operations. The advantage of this is that EU competition rules will not apply so stricly to intercontinental flights as the free common market philosophy is less introduced there, so limited and indirect government support could be tolerated in the future too. (cfr. Air France and Air Lib and the French overseas territories.)
The new name of dat would be:
Sabena Europe,
whereas the name of the intercontinental part of the Newco is going to be:
New Sabena
Logo and livery would most certainly be preserved too
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: 22.5 parallel
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heard today that former owners and management of ex City Bird,(Hasson/Gutelman) are going to invest in new DAT and will have seat on the board.
After all these battles with the Sabena bunch they'r now in the other camp. More job prospectives for ex City Bird pilots then ??
Regards
AV
After all these battles with the Sabena bunch they'r now in the other camp. More job prospectives for ex City Bird pilots then ??
Regards
AV
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: is a point of view
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
well, being onboard one of his "brain" child's I think van Geaver is a bit on the rough side of buisness but as you said guvnor he stood on the craddle of more than one airline that is/are/was still in existence so some credits are due, how many have you founded? Its easy being the Net's conscience but give credit were due. 
And as you probably know since you are so well informed...(where do you get the time?) Anything and i mean anything is possible in belgium
[ 18 December 2001: Message edited by: Pointer ]
And as you probably know since you are so well informed...(where do you get the time?) Anything and i mean anything is possible in belgium
[ 18 December 2001: Message edited by: Pointer ]
Guest
Posts: n/a
OK, standby for the next exciting installment in the ongoing saga of SIC/DAT!! 
And the latest news is ....!
... well, not a lot, really. The Commercial Court has decided to continue things until the 26th, by when the 'Dream Team' should have got their finance in place. VEX, who were mooted as a suitor/saviour, want nothing to do with them.
Or, given all the arm twisting going on in Belgium, they will simply allow it to lurch on with an uncertain future.
As they say, in Belgium ... anything is possible!
And the latest news is ....!
... well, not a lot, really.
The Commercial Court has decided to continue things until the 26th, by when the 'Dream Team' should have got their finance in place. VEX, who were mooted as a suitor/saviour, want nothing to do with them.Or, given all the arm twisting going on in Belgium, they will simply allow it to lurch on with an uncertain future.
As they say, in Belgium ... anything is possible!
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Belgium
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Getting frustrated by the fact that the Sabena creditors are more or less asked by the judge to take their losses and to shut up till a permanent solution has been found to restart Sabena all over again, Gunverd?
You didn't really expect a judge nominated by the PS (Walloon Socialist Party) to simply accept the bancruptcy of a state owned company and the subsequent unemployment of up to 6,000 people only for the sake of some rich foreign banks, did you?
Not after the way in which see herself prevented the lawyers of the SN creditors to ask the SIC bankruptcy on December 13th?
Maybe in primitive societies like the USA or the UK, investors' money is more important then the social welfare of their workers, but not so in the social democratic countries in Western Europe.
You didn't really expect a judge nominated by the PS (Walloon Socialist Party) to simply accept the bancruptcy of a state owned company and the subsequent unemployment of up to 6,000 people only for the sake of some rich foreign banks, did you?
Not after the way in which see herself prevented the lawyers of the SN creditors to ask the SIC bankruptcy on December 13th?
Maybe in primitive societies like the USA or the UK, investors' money is more important then the social welfare of their workers, but not so in the social democratic countries in Western Europe.
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah yes,
Belgium is sooo refined. And, it is a model for all western societies. Especially the way they ran their airline.
C'mon t'bas. Surely you jest.
Another thing. This really isn't that funny. Alot of people have lost their jobs and I can just imagine how I would feel if I lost mine.
Belgium is sooo refined. And, it is a model for all western societies. Especially the way they ran their airline.
C'mon t'bas. Surely you jest.
Another thing. This really isn't that funny. Alot of people have lost their jobs and I can just imagine how I would feel if I lost mine.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Sabenapilot - are you talking about the same "social democratic" country that doesn't even permit those that have been made unemployed to claim any benefits because Sabena apparently isn't even capable of sending out letters of termination to them?
And you feel that this company should receive more billions of Euros of taxpayers money - money that could be better spent on schools, hospitals, roads, etc?
Puhleeeeeeeeze!
And you feel that this company should receive more billions of Euros of taxpayers money - money that could be better spent on schools, hospitals, roads, etc?
Puhleeeeeeeeze!
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Belgium
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Or on more military investments as the NATO asked us last weekend? Sure, we could do that, but do we need it? Schools are free in Belgium and the education received is amongst the best in the world.
Same goes for our hospitals.
Anyway, If we wanted to invest more money in our schools, hospitals etc. I know a very easy way to quickly find about 2.5 billion €: leave NATO for what it is (a useless remainder from the cold war).
As to the very slow and poor way in which the ex SN employees are treated... you are 100% correct. I think it is time we go back on the streats (and to Brussels airport) and reclaim all our legal rights immediately!
It is time we make our government clear we will not tolerate them destroying our social welfare state purely for the sake of european economical growth and competition. There is plenty of money in Belgium, it is only a matter of courage to take it! Remember a country belongs to all its people, not just those who happen to be shareholder of a profitable company!
Same goes for our hospitals.
Anyway, If we wanted to invest more money in our schools, hospitals etc. I know a very easy way to quickly find about 2.5 billion €: leave NATO for what it is (a useless remainder from the cold war).
As to the very slow and poor way in which the ex SN employees are treated... you are 100% correct. I think it is time we go back on the streats (and to Brussels airport) and reclaim all our legal rights immediately!
It is time we make our government clear we will not tolerate them destroying our social welfare state purely for the sake of european economical growth and competition. There is plenty of money in Belgium, it is only a matter of courage to take it! Remember a country belongs to all its people, not just those who happen to be shareholder of a profitable company!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Latest from ATWOnline:
[quote]Sabena's financial arm gets more temporary protection
Dateline: Thursday December 20, 2001
Sabena Interservice Center, financial arm of the defunct airline, received another week of temporary protection from creditors as a Brussels court held that it did not fulfill the conditions for bankruptcy.
Although the Commercial Court of Brussels granted the protection, President Anne Spiritus-Dassesse's decision criticized "the wheeling and dealing of slots, the necessity to rely on government funds, the artificial moves through judicial accords and the unclear contacts with the European Commission."
The court will review SIC's fourth restructuring plan on Dec. 26 and decide whether to grant permanent bankruptcy protection. This week's decision followed a provisional agreement by SIC's creditors on restructuring of its debt. The deal includes rescheduling debts to Sabena Technics and Sobelair and remission of the €110 million ($99.3 million) owed to DAT. SIC loans to DAT would be converted into shares in the successor airline and DAT's leasing contracts would be renegotiated.
The agreement corroborates an earlier SIC decision not to invest €100 million in DAT, posing a problem for the airline's capitalization requirements. The renewed DAT needs a minimum of €300 million in capital and €450 million to operate some long-haul routes, according to Arthur D. Little's business plan (ATWOnline, Dec. 12).
Air Holding, which is trying to establish the new DAT, has €175 million in funds committed, including money from Victor Hasson, former chairman of bankrupt Belgian charter airline City Bird, and former City Bird CEO Georges Gutelman. Last week the Flanders government confirmed that it won't invest in the new airline. <hr></blockquote>
[quote]Sabena's financial arm gets more temporary protection
Dateline: Thursday December 20, 2001
Sabena Interservice Center, financial arm of the defunct airline, received another week of temporary protection from creditors as a Brussels court held that it did not fulfill the conditions for bankruptcy.
Although the Commercial Court of Brussels granted the protection, President Anne Spiritus-Dassesse's decision criticized "the wheeling and dealing of slots, the necessity to rely on government funds, the artificial moves through judicial accords and the unclear contacts with the European Commission."
The court will review SIC's fourth restructuring plan on Dec. 26 and decide whether to grant permanent bankruptcy protection. This week's decision followed a provisional agreement by SIC's creditors on restructuring of its debt. The deal includes rescheduling debts to Sabena Technics and Sobelair and remission of the €110 million ($99.3 million) owed to DAT. SIC loans to DAT would be converted into shares in the successor airline and DAT's leasing contracts would be renegotiated.
The agreement corroborates an earlier SIC decision not to invest €100 million in DAT, posing a problem for the airline's capitalization requirements. The renewed DAT needs a minimum of €300 million in capital and €450 million to operate some long-haul routes, according to Arthur D. Little's business plan (ATWOnline, Dec. 12).
Air Holding, which is trying to establish the new DAT, has €175 million in funds committed, including money from Victor Hasson, former chairman of bankrupt Belgian charter airline City Bird, and former City Bird CEO Georges Gutelman. Last week the Flanders government confirmed that it won't invest in the new airline. <hr></blockquote>
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Germany
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What does this mean for the future of Sobelair? I hear they are still struggling to find new owners. Will they have enough time to do so and be able to survive on a stand-alone basis flying for TUI Belgium only?
Thanks. silversurfer
Thanks. silversurfer
Guest
Posts: n/a
I hear that VEX may be investing €25m in DAT. As they don't appear to have €25m spare, if true the only explanation I can come up with is that they have agreed to convert the claims they had against SN/DAT into equity.
Of course, this doesn't add a centime to DAT's bank account - though it does mean they don't have to set aside money for contingent liabilities - so their funding hasn't really been advanced.
Of course, this doesn't add a centime to DAT's bank account - though it does mean they don't have to set aside money for contingent liabilities - so their funding hasn't really been advanced.