Flying B737-800 and -200 together?
Guest
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BTW - just got me a JAR license (finally!!) and see that I am now qualified to fly B737 300-800 (300 flown) and also DC9 MD80 MD88 and MD90 (DC9 and MD80 flown).
This ain't got anything to do with keeping current on varying types but it shows what the authorities think of it.
This ain't got anything to do with keeping current on varying types but it shows what the authorities think of it.
Guest
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Global,
I think its probably safe (as long as the SOP's are sorted), but a bad idea. The 200 and 800 should be flown as two diff types, because they are two diff types. I don't see the -400 boys operationg the Classic!?? They're both Jumbos. If your company wants a common fleet, get rid of the old 200's. They've more than overstayed their welcome and I'm sure the other two small 737 operators in SA could do with the hardware.
Operating the 800 with the 200 type displays is like buying a Ferrari and sticking Toyota badges all over.
By the way, since you don't email me any more, congrats are in order I believe.....
I think its probably safe (as long as the SOP's are sorted), but a bad idea. The 200 and 800 should be flown as two diff types, because they are two diff types. I don't see the -400 boys operationg the Classic!?? They're both Jumbos. If your company wants a common fleet, get rid of the old 200's. They've more than overstayed their welcome and I'm sure the other two small 737 operators in SA could do with the hardware.
Operating the 800 with the 200 type displays is like buying a Ferrari and sticking Toyota badges all over.
By the way, since you don't email me any more, congrats are in order I believe.....
Guest
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GLOBAL-
It seems that quite a few airlines are mixing their 737's as time progresses. A few years ago there was a U.S. airline that flew -200 combi,-300,-400. A crew may see all three types in a day. The flying was more interesting and better schedules in the -200QC's. A pilot could fly the -200 for months and not see the cockpit of the -400 until it came time for a sim evaluation.
Another U.S. airline presently flying the -200 combi,-400,-700 and next year the -900. Their answer so far has been to separate the -200 from the rest of the fleet. This is mainly due to the specialized flying in the 200's(gravel strips, cargo/passenger ops, special airports, and the region that the 200 works best for the company.) On the other hand, the -400 and 737NG are much more technologically advanced (not meaning to state the obvios here)and management has chosen to keep the "hi-tech"(heads up displays, RNP performance in addition to the major differances) grouped together. There is a requirment that in order for a crew member to stay qualified on the -700 they must have flown it in the preceeding 30 days.
It seems that the easy solution, if an airlines is going to operate a mix of 737's, is the Southwest approach. Make the cockpits as similar as possible.
Hope it helps, good luck, keep us posted.
It seems that quite a few airlines are mixing their 737's as time progresses. A few years ago there was a U.S. airline that flew -200 combi,-300,-400. A crew may see all three types in a day. The flying was more interesting and better schedules in the -200QC's. A pilot could fly the -200 for months and not see the cockpit of the -400 until it came time for a sim evaluation.
Another U.S. airline presently flying the -200 combi,-400,-700 and next year the -900. Their answer so far has been to separate the -200 from the rest of the fleet. This is mainly due to the specialized flying in the 200's(gravel strips, cargo/passenger ops, special airports, and the region that the 200 works best for the company.) On the other hand, the -400 and 737NG are much more technologically advanced (not meaning to state the obvios here)and management has chosen to keep the "hi-tech"(heads up displays, RNP performance in addition to the major differances) grouped together. There is a requirment that in order for a crew member to stay qualified on the -700 they must have flown it in the preceeding 30 days.
It seems that the easy solution, if an airlines is going to operate a mix of 737's, is the Southwest approach. Make the cockpits as similar as possible.
Hope it helps, good luck, keep us posted.
Guest
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Motions coming on-
Here's the rebuff you were expecting.
Yes, a 737 does have 2 CDU's but, in order for an extended ETOPS certificate to be issued it must have, amongst many other items, 2 FMC's. I am referrin to the magic box-of-tricks that lives downstairs in the E&E, and not the CDU's that us pilots type on. So, some 737's do have 2 FMC's.
Here's the rebuff you were expecting.
Yes, a 737 does have 2 CDU's but, in order for an extended ETOPS certificate to be issued it must have, amongst many other items, 2 FMC's. I am referrin to the magic box-of-tricks that lives downstairs in the E&E, and not the CDU's that us pilots type on. So, some 737's do have 2 FMC's.
Guest
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Hi all
Thanks for all the valuable info.
It would be great if more people from SAA would comment on their experiences so far - those that now have quite a bit of time on both.
From my perspective, the a/c are much the same, yet very different. The obvious handling difference is the greater inertia and the -800 feels alot heavier in pitch.
Wrlock is right, as long as the SOP's are sorted and as common as possible to the 2 a/c, there should be no problem.
Our more important colleagues are trying very hard to iron out all of those items, a job which is a much larger task than what seems evident. Thanks, guys.
Keep it safe out there...
Thanks for all the valuable info.
It would be great if more people from SAA would comment on their experiences so far - those that now have quite a bit of time on both.
From my perspective, the a/c are much the same, yet very different. The obvious handling difference is the greater inertia and the -800 feels alot heavier in pitch.
Wrlock is right, as long as the SOP's are sorted and as common as possible to the 2 a/c, there should be no problem.
Our more important colleagues are trying very hard to iron out all of those items, a job which is a much larger task than what seems evident. Thanks, guys.
Keep it safe out there...
Guest
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Hope you'll excuse this contribution from a lowish hr PPL student but, in the case of Kegworth, wasn't there a link of some kind between there being some subtle differences between 737 models and fact that the wrong engine was shut down? Something to do with which engine drove the aircon, if I recall correctly.
Safe flying!
Safe flying!
Guest
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Yes bang on.But mainly that the crews were told to distrust the vib meters on the -200.
But unfortuneately the AVM on the CFM56-3/-4/-5 is really accurate.
But then BMA's experience of the PWJT8D was with the DC8 so somehow followed over to B737-400 crew training.
But unfortuneately the AVM on the CFM56-3/-4/-5 is really accurate.
But then BMA's experience of the PWJT8D was with the DC8 so somehow followed over to B737-400 crew training.
Guest
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Hans Cholder mentions an airline that I am intimately familiar with.
The reason the -200 aircraft are operated as a single type is simply a matter of cost and managerial acumen. In order to integrate the other Boeings with the -200 a Side Letter of Agreement to the Collective Bargaining Agreement would be required. There are several problems with this. One problem is that any integration would inherantly provide efficiencies to the operation. A portion of these efficiencies would have to passed on to the entire pilot group through a quid pro qou. This particular airline hates to return anything to the pilot group. Another problem is that this agreement would probably require membership ratification of the Side Letter. Under the current atmosphere of pilot anger with management this would probably fail miserably. This Side Letter would probably have certain work rule restrictions that would tie the Company's hands to a certain extent. This Company hates to have to comply with these types of restrictions. Or to put it another way- if grown ups ran the airline there would have long ago been an integration of the -200 and the other Boeings and the operation would be more efficient.
As for the -900. It is currently built into the lines time for June. The only training that a 737-4/7/9 pilot will receive regarding the -900 is a training handout.
Continental has operated the -100, -200, and all their other 737's as a single type. There was recently a very good article regarding this in either Airline or Airliners magazine.
The reason the -200 aircraft are operated as a single type is simply a matter of cost and managerial acumen. In order to integrate the other Boeings with the -200 a Side Letter of Agreement to the Collective Bargaining Agreement would be required. There are several problems with this. One problem is that any integration would inherantly provide efficiencies to the operation. A portion of these efficiencies would have to passed on to the entire pilot group through a quid pro qou. This particular airline hates to return anything to the pilot group. Another problem is that this agreement would probably require membership ratification of the Side Letter. Under the current atmosphere of pilot anger with management this would probably fail miserably. This Side Letter would probably have certain work rule restrictions that would tie the Company's hands to a certain extent. This Company hates to have to comply with these types of restrictions. Or to put it another way- if grown ups ran the airline there would have long ago been an integration of the -200 and the other Boeings and the operation would be more efficient.
As for the -900. It is currently built into the lines time for June. The only training that a 737-4/7/9 pilot will receive regarding the -900 is a training handout.
Continental has operated the -100, -200, and all their other 737's as a single type. There was recently a very good article regarding this in either Airline or Airliners magazine.
Guest
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WestJet Airlines, based in Calgary in Western Canada, has a fleet of 23 Boeing 737-200 aircraft and is adding 4 737-700 aircraft during 2001.
During a jumpseat ride a couple of months ago the crew told me that WestJet intended to operate the two types separately from each other.
[This message has been edited by McGinty (edited 15 May 2001).]
During a jumpseat ride a couple of months ago the crew told me that WestJet intended to operate the two types separately from each other.
[This message has been edited by McGinty (edited 15 May 2001).]
Guest
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In my airline case it came down to the usual
deciding factor...money.
We operate the 737-300,500,700,800 and soon
the-900 with all crew's cross qualified. It
saves the company a fortune not having separate fleets, and the extra pilots required.
The 300s are a mix of pure analog, and a few
partial EFIS cockpits, the 500's are all partial EFIS, and the NG all have the 'dumbed
down' so called round dials on glass.
Basically four radically different cockpit configurations, not to mention different engines, dimensions,gross wts, systems etc.
As usual our union acquiesced to any fleet plan the company proposed without any consideration of any safety implications.
It really doesn't make much sense that we operate the NG with the dumbed down presentation, yet we also operate, again as a single fleet,the 752, 762 and the 76-400
with the PFD/ND display.
I suppose you can do anything the CAA or FAA
approve if your union allows, but a lot of pilots out there would disagree strongly.
deciding factor...money.
We operate the 737-300,500,700,800 and soon
the-900 with all crew's cross qualified. It
saves the company a fortune not having separate fleets, and the extra pilots required.
The 300s are a mix of pure analog, and a few
partial EFIS cockpits, the 500's are all partial EFIS, and the NG all have the 'dumbed
down' so called round dials on glass.
Basically four radically different cockpit configurations, not to mention different engines, dimensions,gross wts, systems etc.
As usual our union acquiesced to any fleet plan the company proposed without any consideration of any safety implications.
It really doesn't make much sense that we operate the NG with the dumbed down presentation, yet we also operate, again as a single fleet,the 752, 762 and the 76-400
with the PFD/ND display.
I suppose you can do anything the CAA or FAA
approve if your union allows, but a lot of pilots out there would disagree strongly.
Guest
Posts: n/a
What happens when it is time for a sim rating? Do you know before hand which simulator type you are going to be checked in, as this shouldn't be a problem as you are rostered on both fleets? Is this true?
I have heard that SAA has now stopped their pilots from operating on both fleets of 737's. Rumour has it (from SAA crew)that it was due to an excessive amount of hard landings on the NG's.
I have heard that SAA has now stopped their pilots from operating on both fleets of 737's. Rumour has it (from SAA crew)that it was due to an excessive amount of hard landings on the NG's.
Guest
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We are operating -400 and -800 in our fleet, both in the classic instrument layout.. It does not look to be a great difference. But to see people feeding the -400 FMS with M.80 for a high speed flight and operating the MCP on a 400 like the 800 (they have a different logic in reversion modes) showes me, that you really have to take care about what you do. Imagine, after weeks of flying the 400 you get a heavy inflight problem on a 800.
What I can recommend to you all, after entering the flightdeck, do a 30sec. review to make sure where you are today. It works.
I love the -800. Itīs like a small widebody aircraft and now with winglets...GREAT!!!
What I can recommend to you all, after entering the flightdeck, do a 30sec. review to make sure where you are today. It works.
I love the -800. Itīs like a small widebody aircraft and now with winglets...GREAT!!!
Guest
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Thanks to all for adding their opninions and experiences to this topic.
Planecrazi - yup, you are right. SAA has now split their domestic fleet in two, the -200 and -800 are, for now, flown seperately and there are as many opinions on the viablility and necessity for this split as there are 737's aroung the world!
Basically, safety was the determining factor. There has been a huge amount of training onto both variants and there is a concern amongst some that some for FO's, the 737-200 is their first swept wing, jet type and they obviously need time to build confidence and experience before being converted to the -800. There have been numerous, alleged "hard" landings, but there is speculation about the definition/severity/measurement of "hard" - even Boeing are involved in this evaluation. The fleet split is only temporary for now, who know how long it will last.
The SAA -800's are also 'dumbed down' to enable the cross qualification, but with the two fleets now split, we wonder if they will change the -800 displays to PFD/ND??
Planecrazi - yup, you are right. SAA has now split their domestic fleet in two, the -200 and -800 are, for now, flown seperately and there are as many opinions on the viablility and necessity for this split as there are 737's aroung the world!
Basically, safety was the determining factor. There has been a huge amount of training onto both variants and there is a concern amongst some that some for FO's, the 737-200 is their first swept wing, jet type and they obviously need time to build confidence and experience before being converted to the -800. There have been numerous, alleged "hard" landings, but there is speculation about the definition/severity/measurement of "hard" - even Boeing are involved in this evaluation. The fleet split is only temporary for now, who know how long it will last.
The SAA -800's are also 'dumbed down' to enable the cross qualification, but with the two fleets now split, we wonder if they will change the -800 displays to PFD/ND??
Guest
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At SABENA we used to fly mixed 732 and 733,734,735 for years without any major problems.
Both types were flown with their full capacity(VNAV,ND,EHSI on EFIS,CWS and ALT.capture on -200.
Our licence just mentioned B737 rated.
I heard there might be a different rating
with the new JAA licence?
Both types were flown with their full capacity(VNAV,ND,EHSI on EFIS,CWS and ALT.capture on -200.
Our licence just mentioned B737 rated.
I heard there might be a different rating
with the new JAA licence?
