Hidden PAX
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Hidden PAX
On October,6 this year, the pilot of Air-France flight Brazzaville/Paris received a message," more than one hour after take-off", informing him that a man had been spotted climbing in the wheel well just before take off from Brazzaville (Congo).
After discussion with Air-France operation in CDG, it is said that the decision was taken to continue the flight and land at destination in Paris, where the frozen dead body of an African teen ager was found in the wheel well.
This fact caused some turmoil in pilot's unions , human right and migrant assistance associations in France. Air-France spokesman declared the young Congolese was "no doubt" allready dead when the message was received in the cockpit.
Today, AFP released new Air-France instructions for pilots, in same circumstances, advising them to descend at safety altitude, and land at departure airport, according to possibilities...
Unfortunately this is not the first case of young thoughtless people trying to escape their impoverished African country and reach dreamland....
It seems that there has been a survivor in at least one occurence, on a very short trip in warm low altitude flight.
Usually, the corpse was discovered upon arrival and the pilot got no information about it during flight, but this time two questions arose:
Unhumanity of the decision to refuse taking all the chances to save this human life...if there were any.
Insecurity at Brazzaville Airport (....and you can guess also in similar places) where anybody is able to enter the "protected" area , access to the planes with any intentions and equipment.
French pilots flying between Africa and Europe are aware of these tragic events, but I wonder if it happened in other places, and would be glad to read your opinion and informations if you get some.
Thank you in advance.
Grandpa
After discussion with Air-France operation in CDG, it is said that the decision was taken to continue the flight and land at destination in Paris, where the frozen dead body of an African teen ager was found in the wheel well.
This fact caused some turmoil in pilot's unions , human right and migrant assistance associations in France. Air-France spokesman declared the young Congolese was "no doubt" allready dead when the message was received in the cockpit.
Today, AFP released new Air-France instructions for pilots, in same circumstances, advising them to descend at safety altitude, and land at departure airport, according to possibilities...
Unfortunately this is not the first case of young thoughtless people trying to escape their impoverished African country and reach dreamland....
It seems that there has been a survivor in at least one occurence, on a very short trip in warm low altitude flight.
Usually, the corpse was discovered upon arrival and the pilot got no information about it during flight, but this time two questions arose:
Unhumanity of the decision to refuse taking all the chances to save this human life...if there were any.
Insecurity at Brazzaville Airport (....and you can guess also in similar places) where anybody is able to enter the "protected" area , access to the planes with any intentions and equipment.
French pilots flying between Africa and Europe are aware of these tragic events, but I wonder if it happened in other places, and would be glad to read your opinion and informations if you get some.
Thank you in advance.
Grandpa
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Humanity.....?
I'm desperately trying to feel humanity flowing through your answers.
Are you going then to speak about Civilisation, Good, Evil, Christianity....you know....all these things...?
It is not the kind of answer I was waiting for.
Do you want to turn this thread into the expression of barbarous pulsions?
Please keep the right direction:
Did it happen anywhere else "out of Africa"?
What's your opinion about these facts (either racist or unhumane consideration will be rejected)?
Are you going then to speak about Civilisation, Good, Evil, Christianity....you know....all these things...?
It is not the kind of answer I was waiting for.
Do you want to turn this thread into the expression of barbarous pulsions?
Please keep the right direction:
Did it happen anywhere else "out of Africa"?
What's your opinion about these facts (either racist or unhumane consideration will be rejected)?
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<<It seems that there has been a survivor in at least one occurence, on a very short trip in warm low altitude flight.>>
Years ago I read a story about a guy surviving a 747 flight all the way from India to LHR, hiding in the undercarriage bay. He was even wearing only light clothes. I think his brother was with him but died shortly after take-off. I don't know how well he recovered, but he'd certainly made it alive to the UK, although I'm not sure what happened to his future there from a legal point of view...
Years ago I read a story about a guy surviving a 747 flight all the way from India to LHR, hiding in the undercarriage bay. He was even wearing only light clothes. I think his brother was with him but died shortly after take-off. I don't know how well he recovered, but he'd certainly made it alive to the UK, although I'm not sure what happened to his future there from a legal point of view...
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Grandpa, this has been covered several times in previous threads. fatal Toronto fatal heathrow alive Montreal One of the worst cases into Heathrow, was when a body landed in Sainburys car park, amongst shoppers loading their cars! 
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The Darwin Awards honor those who improve our gene pool... by removing themselves from it. We commemorate the men and women who gave their "all" in an effort to improve the human species. Of necessity, the honor is generally bestowed posthumously. 
Anybody that illegally messes with an aircraft that is carrying other souls and therefore putting them in jeopardy deserves to pay the ultimate price. No different than grabbing a wire bundle and cutting it in my opinion.
Anybody that illegally messes with an aircraft that is carrying other souls and therefore putting them in jeopardy deserves to pay the ultimate price. No different than grabbing a wire bundle and cutting it in my opinion.
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Thank you Rumet and Newswatcher...
...thanks to you I know a bit more about this kind of stowaway.
The most interesting point is about those who survived, even after a long flight at high altitude, so it's never sure a man is dead after hours in this situation.
It has been proposed a video should be installed, which could allow the crew to monitor aircraft belly and wheel well, thus preventing intruders to hide there and improving safety...
Basil my dear!
You should know racist comments are forbidden in Pprune forum....and also by law (in my country and ,I hope, in yours too),
so YOU have to withdraw!
Same for 747Focal: you way of expressing cynical racist views is quite disgusting. It reminds me of a commentary made by a Judge at Nuremberg Court after WWII:
"Racism is welcomed by too many peoples because it allows them to consider that whatever disgraced and stupid they are, they found other peoples they can call "inferior" and humiliate."
Please try to improve yourself first!
The most interesting point is about those who survived, even after a long flight at high altitude, so it's never sure a man is dead after hours in this situation.
It has been proposed a video should be installed, which could allow the crew to monitor aircraft belly and wheel well, thus preventing intruders to hide there and improving safety...
Basil my dear!
You should know racist comments are forbidden in Pprune forum....and also by law (in my country and ,I hope, in yours too),
so YOU have to withdraw!
Same for 747Focal: you way of expressing cynical racist views is quite disgusting. It reminds me of a commentary made by a Judge at Nuremberg Court after WWII:
"Racism is welcomed by too many peoples because it allows them to consider that whatever disgraced and stupid they are, they found other peoples they can call "inferior" and humiliate."
Please try to improve yourself first!
Grandpa, just to make myself absolutely clear:
My views will not be altered by 'thought police'.
I enjoy speaking out against those who use the cheap abuse of terms such as 'racist', 'bigot', 'fascist', 'sexist', 'anti-semitic' (whatever that may mean), as a way of stifling comment.
No one is immune from adverse criticism by virtue of their perceived persecution.
p.s: I wouldn't say the guy's stupid for trying to stow away in the wheelwell, just extremely badly informed.
My views will not be altered by 'thought police'.
I enjoy speaking out against those who use the cheap abuse of terms such as 'racist', 'bigot', 'fascist', 'sexist', 'anti-semitic' (whatever that may mean), as a way of stifling comment.
No one is immune from adverse criticism by virtue of their perceived persecution.
p.s: I wouldn't say the guy's stupid for trying to stow away in the wheelwell, just extremely badly informed.
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Grandpa,
I have read Basils’ and 747focals’ postings several times now and see no racist comments or suggestion in either of them. Me thinks you are trying to start a Racist argument, given you are the only person who has mentioned racism.
The morality of the decision made by the crew and management is worthy of good debate, however I suspect you may be using the post for another agenda.
I have read Basils’ and 747focals’ postings several times now and see no racist comments or suggestion in either of them. Me thinks you are trying to start a Racist argument, given you are the only person who has mentioned racism.
The morality of the decision made by the crew and management is worthy of good debate, however I suspect you may be using the post for another agenda.
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I would have thought that this discussion be best moved to JetBlast.
It now seems to be boiling down to the moral question of "should people be protected from their own actions because of ignorance?"
Its a very fine line, but I can't help thinking that the correct response to those who end up in a criminal court is that they cannot escape from the consequences of their actions because they didn't think through it fully. The more difficult question is whether they were capable of thinking it through fully. If one wants to say that because of their ethnic origins, they were incapable of thinking it through fully, whereas I, from a different part of the world, could think it through fully, I would humbly submit that this is racism.
Undoubtedly this poor guy knew his actions were criminal. He therefore took a risk that the sanction if he were caught would be less severe than it turned out to be. Its tragic, but I believe that there has to be a deterrent to criminal activity.
I think that its a moral dilemma comparable with the Jamaican drug mules coming into Heathrow. These women are tempted by getting enough money to solve all their problems, and no doubt believe that the chance of getting caught is smaller than it is, or that the punishment if caught is far less severe. What is the appropriate sentence here?
cur
It now seems to be boiling down to the moral question of "should people be protected from their own actions because of ignorance?"
Its a very fine line, but I can't help thinking that the correct response to those who end up in a criminal court is that they cannot escape from the consequences of their actions because they didn't think through it fully. The more difficult question is whether they were capable of thinking it through fully. If one wants to say that because of their ethnic origins, they were incapable of thinking it through fully, whereas I, from a different part of the world, could think it through fully, I would humbly submit that this is racism.
Undoubtedly this poor guy knew his actions were criminal. He therefore took a risk that the sanction if he were caught would be less severe than it turned out to be. Its tragic, but I believe that there has to be a deterrent to criminal activity.
I think that its a moral dilemma comparable with the Jamaican drug mules coming into Heathrow. These women are tempted by getting enough money to solve all their problems, and no doubt believe that the chance of getting caught is smaller than it is, or that the punishment if caught is far less severe. What is the appropriate sentence here?
cur
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Hey back to a serious note for a moment, (Not saying that predujice and hatred are not) but back to that most serious of issues, aviation.
In the modern "Post 911" world, what the hell are the carriers dong letting random people get that close to their A/C!
This ain't about some poor badly informed guy who thought it would never happen to him, this is about a badly informed person with a bomb etc who is on a mission to get a point of view across.
At Airports with lesser security should a crew member not do a final pre-push walk round check into the wells etc, as this would solve two probs: Stowaways and attached threats.
Just a thought.
In the modern "Post 911" world, what the hell are the carriers dong letting random people get that close to their A/C!
This ain't about some poor badly informed guy who thought it would never happen to him, this is about a badly informed person with a bomb etc who is on a mission to get a point of view across.
At Airports with lesser security should a crew member not do a final pre-push walk round check into the wells etc, as this would solve two probs: Stowaways and attached threats.
Just a thought.
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"At Airports with lesser security should a crew member not do a final pre-push walk round check into the wells etc, as this would solve two probs: Stowaways and attached threats."
I seem to recall seeing or reading somewhere that when events such as that mentioned at the outset of this thread occur it is long after the push at terminal. Usually the potential stowaway is hiding in long grass near the runway where security isn't so tight and as the a/c is on or approaches active runway for departure he makes his move. Hence a pre-push check wouldn't be of any use. Neither, I suggest, would a multi-lingual sign in the well of the a/c as was suggested since you will probably find that most people contemplating such an action would quite possibly be illiterate. Any relevance to the fact that it is inevitably a male?
I seem to recall seeing or reading somewhere that when events such as that mentioned at the outset of this thread occur it is long after the push at terminal. Usually the potential stowaway is hiding in long grass near the runway where security isn't so tight and as the a/c is on or approaches active runway for departure he makes his move. Hence a pre-push check wouldn't be of any use. Neither, I suggest, would a multi-lingual sign in the well of the a/c as was suggested since you will probably find that most people contemplating such an action would quite possibly be illiterate. Any relevance to the fact that it is inevitably a male?
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Two facets.
Now that this thread has returned to some kind of civilised discussion, let us point again this problem is asking two questions to us:
May I tell those who focalise on the stowaway guilt (...often illeterate teens thus irresponsible by definition...), that, doing so, they are neglecting the other and very important question of aircraft safety.
Interesting demonstration, when you see that you have better to stick strictly on humanism, if you want to avoid unpredected awfull consequences.
So, the point is "How can we protect aircraft and passengers from this danger?"
One solution is following the plane from apron to runway and make sure nobody get a chance to climb in the wheel wells.
Video monitoring from the cockpit of all the hidden parts of the plane could enhance safety too.
Should we be surprised that this tremendous hole in Air Transport safety is left wide open, in today's dangerous environment, when we know terrorists are taking each and every opportunity to take the lives of hundreds of innocent people, when we know that instead of unconscious teens there could be a suicid attack by fanatics?
My opinion is it's time to invest money in embarked video monitoring, and I wonder what professionnal pilots and other concerned (what about technical problems?) think about it on Pprune?
May I tell those who focalise on the stowaway guilt (...often illeterate teens thus irresponsible by definition...), that, doing so, they are neglecting the other and very important question of aircraft safety.
Interesting demonstration, when you see that you have better to stick strictly on humanism, if you want to avoid unpredected awfull consequences.
So, the point is "How can we protect aircraft and passengers from this danger?"
One solution is following the plane from apron to runway and make sure nobody get a chance to climb in the wheel wells.
Video monitoring from the cockpit of all the hidden parts of the plane could enhance safety too.
Should we be surprised that this tremendous hole in Air Transport safety is left wide open, in today's dangerous environment, when we know terrorists are taking each and every opportunity to take the lives of hundreds of innocent people, when we know that instead of unconscious teens there could be a suicid attack by fanatics?
My opinion is it's time to invest money in embarked video monitoring, and I wonder what professionnal pilots and other concerned (what about technical problems?) think about it on Pprune?
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Nah - bollocks to em. Anyone (of any nationality) who is stupid enough to get into a wheel well, deserves everything they get.
These aircraft are soon going to be so laid up with wheel-well-camera-surveillance systems and SAM-missile-defense-protection systems and hardened-cockpit-doors and god knows what else, that they will be too heavy to get off the ground
An extra couple of security guards in a pillbox at the runway threshold would do the business - and it's much more cost effective, the airlines could all chip in, and on African wages you could pay them for the next 1000000 years for the price of some flashy STC'ed camera system
.
A multi lingual sign in the wheel well is actually not a silly idea (or even some graphics or pictures of frozen corpses for the illiterate ones). It would also have the bonus of protecting US carriers from being sued by the occasional survivors for failing to fully notify them of the hazards involved (think I'm kidding! Remember that woman who tried to sue Mcdonalds for millions after she spilled hot coffee on her lap, so now Mcdonalds coffees and apple pies have that big 'Caution - filling may be hot').
These aircraft are soon going to be so laid up with wheel-well-camera-surveillance systems and SAM-missile-defense-protection systems and hardened-cockpit-doors and god knows what else, that they will be too heavy to get off the ground
An extra couple of security guards in a pillbox at the runway threshold would do the business - and it's much more cost effective, the airlines could all chip in, and on African wages you could pay them for the next 1000000 years for the price of some flashy STC'ed camera system
.A multi lingual sign in the wheel well is actually not a silly idea (or even some graphics or pictures of frozen corpses for the illiterate ones). It would also have the bonus of protecting US carriers from being sued by the occasional survivors for failing to fully notify them of the hazards involved (think I'm kidding! Remember that woman who tried to sue Mcdonalds for millions after she spilled hot coffee on her lap, so now Mcdonalds coffees and apple pies have that big 'Caution - filling may be hot').