Emirates Rapid Backpedal
I thought I wouldn't order a Personal Title to help offset the many thousands of pounds a month it costs to run PPRuNe. Nah... I'll just sit here and moan about it.
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Emirates Rapid Backpedal
Emirates backpedals rapidly to crew the forthcoming aircraft.
Looks like all previous threads should be scrubbed regarding DE Capts as its all gone horribly wrong. The company can only manage to get a few DE Capts <20 and the accelerated guys are getting upgraded on lower than the briefed minimum, as per the latest FCI. Those "Waiting" for the required 18 months / 1000 hrs etc are being given upgrades now because the DE's aren't available. What to do?
Interesting times ahead.
Looks like all previous threads should be scrubbed regarding DE Capts as its all gone horribly wrong. The company can only manage to get a few DE Capts <20 and the accelerated guys are getting upgraded on lower than the briefed minimum, as per the latest FCI. Those "Waiting" for the required 18 months / 1000 hrs etc are being given upgrades now because the DE's aren't available. What to do?
Interesting times ahead.
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Go Direct, I heard the same thing yesterday from a mate in EK, who was asked to give a reference for a mutual colleague. Seems there are only a handful of UK based pilots that have applied; the predicted "flood" of applications has not materialised.
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.........Seems there are only a handful of UK based pilots that have applied; the predicted "flood" of applications has not materialised.
Could be that when we applied in the past they "kissed" us off!!
What goes around, comes around. Good luck to all you guys waiting for your commands!
Could be that when we applied in the past they "kissed" us off!!
What goes around, comes around. Good luck to all you guys waiting for your commands!
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This is good news for everyone. Glad to see EK getting a bucket of cold water thrown on them. Maybe they'll even think of improving the package for their pilots before trying that silly stunt again.
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yeah and Father Christmas will be dropping by for a scotch at 11.30 pm on the 24th........Idunno.......I wish you were right but history has a habit of beating you over the head with a skillet when it comes to pay increases in airlines run by bean counters.
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It’s called market forces – much beloved here in Singapore. If EK management isn’t prepared to offer a reasonable package to DE Captains (ie generate an attractive force), then how can it expect anyone in the market who is suitably qualified and experienced to bother shifting their backsides to the desert?
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Arrogance!!
All of the above statements are correct. Further more the arrogance of the "bean counting " mentality is now producing these sort of results!! Having spent ten years in this place, I now sit back with a smile on my face and watch as the train derails itself from it's previous "lucky" tracks!! That famous line from the Jerry McGuire movie comes to mind, "SHOW ME THE MONEY." And I wish this on all my fellow aviators out there, Whether your are EK or not! We all bloody well deserve it! That's my five dirhams(divide this by 3.673 for US) worth of opinion!!!
Check your six out there.
Check your six out there.
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Check "Six" How right indeed about the arrogance of Emirates in thinking that highly qualified Type Rated A340/330 Captains would drop everything and take a weeks leave to come to Dubai to jump through their hoops, and then drag their families to the Desert and take by all accounts the accommodation offered by EK which may be good or may not be without any choice and take a chance of getting ones children if applicable into Schools already full perhaps all for a Paltry $6500 per month.!!!!
Methinks the like of EK and SQ and all other expat Airlines should realise the time has come to start paying a more realistic salary
and stop thinking that since 9/11 Pilots are 10 a Penny!!!!!
Methinks the like of EK and SQ and all other expat Airlines should realise the time has come to start paying a more realistic salary
and stop thinking that since 9/11 Pilots are 10 a Penny!!!!!
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I made some comments on a recent "Emirates payscales" thread, before I read this one about the DCE plan falling apart.
Well I must say I am thoroughly delighted for the chaps out there, many of whom must have been thoroughly po'd at the prospect. Sure, EK isn't my company, but this is my profession and it is great to see experienced pilots voting with their feet and in effect telling EK where to shove their lousy pay scales.
I find it ludicrous to handcuff oneself to Dubai for seven years (so as to get the provident contributions) and have their pittance of pay. And then insult to injury, EK decide to wreck your career expectations and bring in DEC's.
This is likely a blessing in disguise for EK's management, I hope they are wise enough to pick up on their fortune and not pursue such plans in the future. There are a lot of guys at EK (Canadians, Australians, South Africans and Kiwis among others) who haven't got a lot of choice right now, but they will have one day. Do EK really want a po'd pilot workforce when these fellas can get work back home ? I think such an exodus then would be far more harmful than a little "training backlog" in the present, not to mention the intangiable of "workforce morale", also in the present.
Well I must say I am thoroughly delighted for the chaps out there, many of whom must have been thoroughly po'd at the prospect. Sure, EK isn't my company, but this is my profession and it is great to see experienced pilots voting with their feet and in effect telling EK where to shove their lousy pay scales.
I find it ludicrous to handcuff oneself to Dubai for seven years (so as to get the provident contributions) and have their pittance of pay. And then insult to injury, EK decide to wreck your career expectations and bring in DEC's.
This is likely a blessing in disguise for EK's management, I hope they are wise enough to pick up on their fortune and not pursue such plans in the future. There are a lot of guys at EK (Canadians, Australians, South Africans and Kiwis among others) who haven't got a lot of choice right now, but they will have one day. Do EK really want a po'd pilot workforce when these fellas can get work back home ? I think such an exodus then would be far more harmful than a little "training backlog" in the present, not to mention the intangiable of "workforce morale", also in the present.
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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“There are a lot of guys at EK (Canadians, Australians, South Africans and Kiwis among others) who haven't got a lot of choice right now, but they will have one day”
I assume you mean that when the aforesaid pilots have acquired command time, they will migrate to greener pastures. Perhaps, but looking at the present state of aviation, skibeagle, I don’t foresee an exodus of any kind either in the near future, or the nebulous ‘one day’ to come, especially so for the nationalities you mention above.
If you have not been hired by your own national carrier at an early age, then you are necessarily forced into the overseas contract market for the rest of your working life. A harsh reality check, the over-riding desire to fly involves many sacrifices.
It is, unfortunately, very much an employer’s market, and will remain so for some time to come.
I assume you mean that when the aforesaid pilots have acquired command time, they will migrate to greener pastures. Perhaps, but looking at the present state of aviation, skibeagle, I don’t foresee an exodus of any kind either in the near future, or the nebulous ‘one day’ to come, especially so for the nationalities you mention above.
If you have not been hired by your own national carrier at an early age, then you are necessarily forced into the overseas contract market for the rest of your working life. A harsh reality check, the over-riding desire to fly involves many sacrifices.
It is, unfortunately, very much an employer’s market, and will remain so for some time to come.
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bug smasher, it is indeed an employers market right now, no argument from me on that score, but I most certainly do not mean that when aforementioned pilots have acquired sufficient command time. Ergo your assumption is wrong.
A great number of pilots at EK went there with plenty of command time, hence my post on another thread about the DEC's being a smack in the mouth to these people, (particularly EK's rule to exclude the B757 from the wide-body category - a bone of contention for many). For a lot of people it is the only game in town right now, but the risk remains for EK to screw this up over the longer term. But that said, airline management always was a cold blooded reptilian beast (especially in that part of the world, Gulf Air is a prime precident), so I wouldn't hold my breath on them getting this one right necessarily.
As for the situation back home for these guys, well, it was a pretty good rule of thumb that if you hadn't made it into a US major by the time you were thirty five, you could pretty much kiss that career path good bye (different in other countries). However, consider the demographics: we are going to see a couple of years before the furlough lists are depleted, meanwhile, the Vietnam era trained guys are retiring at a steady pace, thanks to the age rules remaining in place. At that point, where are the major carriers going to get their pilots ? The military is a much reduced source as we all know, are they really going to deplete their own regional feeders of pilots at that point ? Airlines are concerned about having a gap in the experience base, sufficient to do something about it. UAL's position of having their furloughed guys fly with the regionals and having their salaries topped up by $20 per hour is a good example of trying to keep these highly qualified individuals form drifting off into other spheres.
You could say we are in a similar situation to the mid seventies when US furloughs were also in vogue, the huge difference between then and now is that civil aviation is bigger, the military isn't the source it once was and civil trained pilots are on the decrease too. So whats that say about the conventional "thirty-five or forget it" rule ? Of course, only time will tell, but I know of one certain JFK operation that sounds like a pregnancy test that is hiring guys in their late forties.
A great number of pilots at EK went there with plenty of command time, hence my post on another thread about the DEC's being a smack in the mouth to these people, (particularly EK's rule to exclude the B757 from the wide-body category - a bone of contention for many). For a lot of people it is the only game in town right now, but the risk remains for EK to screw this up over the longer term. But that said, airline management always was a cold blooded reptilian beast (especially in that part of the world, Gulf Air is a prime precident), so I wouldn't hold my breath on them getting this one right necessarily.
As for the situation back home for these guys, well, it was a pretty good rule of thumb that if you hadn't made it into a US major by the time you were thirty five, you could pretty much kiss that career path good bye (different in other countries). However, consider the demographics: we are going to see a couple of years before the furlough lists are depleted, meanwhile, the Vietnam era trained guys are retiring at a steady pace, thanks to the age rules remaining in place. At that point, where are the major carriers going to get their pilots ? The military is a much reduced source as we all know, are they really going to deplete their own regional feeders of pilots at that point ? Airlines are concerned about having a gap in the experience base, sufficient to do something about it. UAL's position of having their furloughed guys fly with the regionals and having their salaries topped up by $20 per hour is a good example of trying to keep these highly qualified individuals form drifting off into other spheres.
You could say we are in a similar situation to the mid seventies when US furloughs were also in vogue, the huge difference between then and now is that civil aviation is bigger, the military isn't the source it once was and civil trained pilots are on the decrease too. So whats that say about the conventional "thirty-five or forget it" rule ? Of course, only time will tell, but I know of one certain JFK operation that sounds like a pregnancy test that is hiring guys in their late forties.
Last edited by skibeagle; 26th Oct 2003 at 18:29.
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Life for foreigners in Korea,-particularly if you have a family,- means that KAL is a very different proposition to EK, and they have to pay accordingly. Its nothing like Hong Kong either .For most foreigners theres no contest between the two lifestyles . Dubai is well geared to them. Notwithstanding the presence of the US forces, Korea generally is not. Dubai pastures,- other than those artifically watered,- may not look greener,- but they are.
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Everyone knows, skibeagle, that the difference between a 767 and a 757 is matter of 3-ish seats across. The distinction has been used by unscrupulous management individuals at various airlines, not only EK, to prevent advancement by certain groups of individuals, and constitutes a self-serving game of political handball. Life's a bitch, I fly with a few of them.
That having been said, the imminent pilot shortage has been a long time coming, perhaps it’s just breathing hard. In the meantime, enjoy the Dubai sun, and please don’t hold your breath.
That having been said, the imminent pilot shortage has been a long time coming, perhaps it’s just breathing hard. In the meantime, enjoy the Dubai sun, and please don’t hold your breath.
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Skylion ...
I think you may be somewhat misinformed. Life for foreigners in Korea is certainly different from Hong Kong or Dubai, but it's not the hardship that you may be imagining.
More to the point, KAL's expat captains don't even live in Korea at all, but rather commute on a monthly basis from their homes, which may be anywhere in the world they choose to live. For most of us, this is the critical difference between EK and KAL and the reason why the EK DEC positions are of little interest.
There just aren't many guys willing to take an approx 40% pay cut and move their families from Vancouver/Brisbane/Zurich or wherever out to the sandbox. Frankly, EK seems to have got it backwards in assuming that they could attract guys at a discount to the going rates. The truth is that they will have to offer a premium if they want guys with the sort of qualifications they are requiring to give up long term contracts and homes in the nicer parts of the world in order to work for EK.
I think you may be somewhat misinformed. Life for foreigners in Korea is certainly different from Hong Kong or Dubai, but it's not the hardship that you may be imagining.
More to the point, KAL's expat captains don't even live in Korea at all, but rather commute on a monthly basis from their homes, which may be anywhere in the world they choose to live. For most of us, this is the critical difference between EK and KAL and the reason why the EK DEC positions are of little interest.
There just aren't many guys willing to take an approx 40% pay cut and move their families from Vancouver/Brisbane/Zurich or wherever out to the sandbox. Frankly, EK seems to have got it backwards in assuming that they could attract guys at a discount to the going rates. The truth is that they will have to offer a premium if they want guys with the sort of qualifications they are requiring to give up long term contracts and homes in the nicer parts of the world in order to work for EK.
EK DEC
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I cant see basings being an issue at this time.
The reason I say this is that the problem the company faces is being able to crew the unexpected new aircraft. They initially thought DEC was the answer, but clearly that isn't going to work. If they were to start basing crews, we would be happy, but that isn't going to bring any DEC's to the company. If they were to offer basings to DEC's, which may attract a few more, I think there would almost be a mutiny here.
I agree that a long term solution would be to start a basing program, as this would make EK a far more attractive career option and may entice some away from their present jobs. But as far as addressing the current problem. I don't think it would make a great impact. IMHO
Cop U Later
The Rev
The reason I say this is that the problem the company faces is being able to crew the unexpected new aircraft. They initially thought DEC was the answer, but clearly that isn't going to work. If they were to start basing crews, we would be happy, but that isn't going to bring any DEC's to the company. If they were to offer basings to DEC's, which may attract a few more, I think there would almost be a mutiny here.
I agree that a long term solution would be to start a basing program, as this would make EK a far more attractive career option and may entice some away from their present jobs. But as far as addressing the current problem. I don't think it would make a great impact. IMHO
Cop U Later
The Rev
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The Rev Doug Welcome back to this topic of EK and DEC's,
As usual you talk wisely and basings would not solve the less than expected (to EK management that is) abject failure by all accounts of the recent recruitment campaign by EK.
Only HARD CASH will sort this problem out, As others have said Dubai is getting more and more expensive whilst EK's Salary has remained the same for years!!
This all could work to your advantage in the end,but talk of "mutiny" in the ranks is a bit wide of the mark methinks as EK would only have to do a "Cathay" on a smaller scale to get you all back in line.
Perhaps this is the start of more realistic salaries being offered by ALL expat Airlines??
As usual you talk wisely and basings would not solve the less than expected (to EK management that is) abject failure by all accounts of the recent recruitment campaign by EK.
Only HARD CASH will sort this problem out, As others have said Dubai is getting more and more expensive whilst EK's Salary has remained the same for years!!
This all could work to your advantage in the end,but talk of "mutiny" in the ranks is a bit wide of the mark methinks as EK would only have to do a "Cathay" on a smaller scale to get you all back in line.
Perhaps this is the start of more realistic salaries being offered by ALL expat Airlines??