Heathrow Tornado causes BA diversions
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Thank you for your comments from the sidelines.
The NOTAM system - Notice to Airman - applies to all aviation users, as I'm sure you know. If its not working for the civil side then its an issue for them. I don't profess to knowing how the civil briefing side works but in the UK military it is the individual crews responsibility to ensure that all NOTAMs are briefed, marked on their maps etc etc. If the various companies ops staff did not brief the individual captains as to potential delays on their arrival slot times ......
As for the TOT question. Whilst the flypast was commerating the 50th anniversary of Runnymede it was in the presence of HM The Queen. Whilst these events are run to second by second accuracy you would be amazed how often things get delayed. A recent flypast in Norfolk was delayed when HMTQ was held up by a local Norfolk lass on a driving lesson bimbling along the country lanes at 20mph, thus making HMTQ late! At least by giving a 10min bracket the numerous companies operating into and out of LHR could have made suitable contingency in their fuel planning (or not as seems to be the case).
As for the "called in early" it was exactly that. As I mentioned in the para above things don't always go to plan and on this occasion things were running early. Unfortunately, because of airspace restrictions (I know, I know) we had to plan our timing hold well to the North East (ie off Southwold) and were committed to a "hard" time some 10 mins prior to overflight. We didn't get the call that things were running early until we were almost on top so only had speed available to catch up time. Whilst overflying the memorial in burner (reheat) would have been a real fitting tribute, HMTQ and most of the residents would have been well unimpressed!!!!!! However, as I understand it some smart small-talk ensured HMTQ was kept occupied as we chopped along at a gentlemens (but legal) speed!!!!
And as I said in my earlier post - practice makes perfect. The flight on Wednesday was to ensure that all the deconfliction procedures, frequency allocations, routing etc all worked. Again, it would appear that this was given a stiff ignore by some.
Smudger
Not raising to the bait - as you will see from some of the posts (not the fuel reserve posts!!), partcularly from wee jock, remembrance like this mean a lot to them. I will defend my corner - besides it gives me something to do when the jet goes u/s ......again!!!!
Safe flying everyone!
Thank you for your comments from the sidelines.
The NOTAM system - Notice to Airman - applies to all aviation users, as I'm sure you know. If its not working for the civil side then its an issue for them. I don't profess to knowing how the civil briefing side works but in the UK military it is the individual crews responsibility to ensure that all NOTAMs are briefed, marked on their maps etc etc. If the various companies ops staff did not brief the individual captains as to potential delays on their arrival slot times ......
As for the TOT question. Whilst the flypast was commerating the 50th anniversary of Runnymede it was in the presence of HM The Queen. Whilst these events are run to second by second accuracy you would be amazed how often things get delayed. A recent flypast in Norfolk was delayed when HMTQ was held up by a local Norfolk lass on a driving lesson bimbling along the country lanes at 20mph, thus making HMTQ late! At least by giving a 10min bracket the numerous companies operating into and out of LHR could have made suitable contingency in their fuel planning (or not as seems to be the case).
As for the "called in early" it was exactly that. As I mentioned in the para above things don't always go to plan and on this occasion things were running early. Unfortunately, because of airspace restrictions (I know, I know) we had to plan our timing hold well to the North East (ie off Southwold) and were committed to a "hard" time some 10 mins prior to overflight. We didn't get the call that things were running early until we were almost on top so only had speed available to catch up time. Whilst overflying the memorial in burner (reheat) would have been a real fitting tribute, HMTQ and most of the residents would have been well unimpressed!!!!!! However, as I understand it some smart small-talk ensured HMTQ was kept occupied as we chopped along at a gentlemens (but legal) speed!!!!
And as I said in my earlier post - practice makes perfect. The flight on Wednesday was to ensure that all the deconfliction procedures, frequency allocations, routing etc all worked. Again, it would appear that this was given a stiff ignore by some.
Smudger
Not raising to the bait - as you will see from some of the posts (not the fuel reserve posts!!), partcularly from wee jock, remembrance like this mean a lot to them. I will defend my corner - besides it gives me something to do when the jet goes u/s ......again!!!!
Safe flying everyone!
Everybody's gotta be somewhere
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I'm just a pax, I've never fought for my country but I'm very grateful to those who have.
The Wake Knot.
I am very grateful to you and your colleagues for reminding us of the debts we owe. I have family in the forces, you are all precious to your families – don’t ever doubt this fact.
The Wake Knot.
I am very grateful to you and your colleagues for reminding us of the debts we owe. I have family in the forces, you are all precious to your families – don’t ever doubt this fact.
Time merchant
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To be fair to the Crabs the delays into EGLL were not all their responsibilty.
Windshear and work on the new terminal had meant reduced arrival rate for most of the morning anyway. The ten minute flypast was just the last straw. Capacity was reduced for 1 hour by the way, so it sounds like the fly past was being used to buy some breathing space and get the air holding time down.
From some of the comments above seems it is better to wait on the ground than in the air anyway!
Windshear and work on the new terminal had meant reduced arrival rate for most of the morning anyway. The ten minute flypast was just the last straw. Capacity was reduced for 1 hour by the way, so it sounds like the fly past was being used to buy some breathing space and get the air holding time down.
From some of the comments above seems it is better to wait on the ground than in the air anyway!
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Capt H P
We've been over this before...
Some (brief) answers:
1. 'Big' complies with all the JAR OPs blah you quote.
2. I have reprinted all the CAA AICs etc. you quote. There is much mention of "20mins", but never do I see it say you should carry "20mins holding" over & above the standard planning criteria. Indeed, AIC 82/2003 states:
..should plan.. overhead... at the very least, fuel .. to:
Make Approach, Missed Approach, fly to Altn, App & Land there, 30 mins @ 1500' @ ELW.
3. 'Big' carries all that, and contingency.
4. In SH, SCF is not yet in use, and we plan to carry the standard 3% (ERA) / 5% / 15mins.
If you have the reference that states we sould carry 20 mins holding on top of this, please quote it directly here (no spin/interpetation!). I, for one, would love, on occasion, to have such a reference to challenge 'Big' on. But everytime it is quoted here, it doesn't actually say it (I also have FODC 11/2003).
What it says is "No delay" means 20 mins. "No delay" = no EATs. Last week we got to the point where there were EATs more often than not, and no planning indication of such delays i.e. the first we knew of "No Delay" (i.e. up to 20 mins) of EAT was on initial descent.
Diversions / Safety.
We have a new Flt Planning system - yes. It uses the same principles as above to plan on, however, somehow most elements are a bit less than before. Whether the old was "fat", and the new "correct", or the new "over lean" is a fine call right now.. however, the overall effect is we have less, but all iaw the rules.
As for the diversions, it is a fact of life. It is not safety related, but is a commerical risk. Safety does come to the Commander's door, and I for one am more than happy with the new system, and know what needs to be done when. If the company wish to run the commerical risk of increased probability of diversions, then so be it - that is largely their call.
Finally, since JAR OPs seems your bed time reading, under it with 2 runways, <6 hours Flt Time, good wx etc. there is no need to plan for, or carry fuel for, any Altns. And 75%+ of the time, this applies to LHR. 'Big', however, does not take advantage of this in planning, and we always plan for 1 Altn....
We've been over this before...
Some (brief) answers:
1. 'Big' complies with all the JAR OPs blah you quote.
2. I have reprinted all the CAA AICs etc. you quote. There is much mention of "20mins", but never do I see it say you should carry "20mins holding" over & above the standard planning criteria. Indeed, AIC 82/2003 states:
..should plan.. overhead... at the very least, fuel .. to:
Make Approach, Missed Approach, fly to Altn, App & Land there, 30 mins @ 1500' @ ELW.
3. 'Big' carries all that, and contingency.
4. In SH, SCF is not yet in use, and we plan to carry the standard 3% (ERA) / 5% / 15mins.
If you have the reference that states we sould carry 20 mins holding on top of this, please quote it directly here (no spin/interpetation!). I, for one, would love, on occasion, to have such a reference to challenge 'Big' on. But everytime it is quoted here, it doesn't actually say it (I also have FODC 11/2003).
What it says is "No delay" means 20 mins. "No delay" = no EATs. Last week we got to the point where there were EATs more often than not, and no planning indication of such delays i.e. the first we knew of "No Delay" (i.e. up to 20 mins) of EAT was on initial descent.
Diversions / Safety.
We have a new Flt Planning system - yes. It uses the same principles as above to plan on, however, somehow most elements are a bit less than before. Whether the old was "fat", and the new "correct", or the new "over lean" is a fine call right now.. however, the overall effect is we have less, but all iaw the rules.
As for the diversions, it is a fact of life. It is not safety related, but is a commerical risk. Safety does come to the Commander's door, and I for one am more than happy with the new system, and know what needs to be done when. If the company wish to run the commerical risk of increased probability of diversions, then so be it - that is largely their call.
Finally, since JAR OPs seems your bed time reading, under it with 2 runways, <6 hours Flt Time, good wx etc. there is no need to plan for, or carry fuel for, any Altns. And 75%+ of the time, this applies to LHR. 'Big', however, does not take advantage of this in planning, and we always plan for 1 Altn....
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I'm just SLF, and can see both sides of the argument, but I'm with the boys in blue, and remind the civvies of those who have fought for the country, and that they must be dutifully remembered.
Jordan
Jordan
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the only conclusion i can come up with regarding why Airbus don't take enough holding fuel, is that quite often A320's are very weight restricted if departing with a full traffic load, as from experience i know of quite a few A320 having to do tech stops due to that reason,
RGDS.
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If a BA aircraft ever ever runs out of fuel it will thus be pilot error. Whilst the company will be legally off the hook it will be very expensive for them.
We can expect wholesale management sackings and very adverse publicity.
Only when passengers and crews have died will these fuel loads be increased.
We can expect wholesale management sackings and very adverse publicity.
Only when passengers and crews have died will these fuel loads be increased.
