Brits poised to Invade Canada? Again!

[flying monty]

Sorry folks but I can't see the Canadian government approve this one. Skyservice just hired 77 exC3 pilots, a large number of f/as and mtce types to fly the Caribbean charters for the season. From what I know at least 4 additional 320 to be added to their fleet. Not too sure how permanent this will be. We will have to see.

[PaperTiger]

Guv, the ban was relaxed a couple of days ago. Canadian, Mexican, Bermudan and Cayman registered a/c now allowed into the US. The last two undoubtedly to accomodate all those well-heeled types whose expensive chariots are registered there.

[Ole Flashy]

Air Communist....er sorry...Air Canada is in the process of grovelling and snivelling to the Govt of Canada for millions of dollars to upgrade their failling bilingualism program.
There is the chance for Air 2000 to get some seed money.If
you mention bi-lingualism in Canada the trough is filled with bucks to feast from.
When Air 200 goes belly up, is there an Air 1000?

[Willie Everlearn]

The airline industry in Canada is intent on self-destruction, and for all intents and purposes, has been fataly wounded. Recent events included.

Our Liberal Government, having painted itself into a corner over airline mergers and competition, is running out of, and short of solutions. Despite protests from out of work airline workers, this government refuses to listen. It’s its own boss. For this reason I expect to see Air 2000 operate out of Toronto this winter as a viable solution to the present state of the industry.

And why not?
Perhaps they are welcome more than many care to admit.

We should expect this proposal to meet with ‘token’ resistance in Parliament. The number of ‘out of work’ airline employees is only a fraction of the number found in our Fisheries Industry. Bureaucrats will make that comparison and realize the present airline unemployment situation isn’t that bad by comparison. In fact, there are many within Government on record (during the Air Canada/Canadian Airlines merger) as having called for the allowance of Foreign Carriers to operate within Canada. The rationale being the threat that exists to the consumer is of far greater concern than their concern for the industry through forced and ‘artificial’ competition.

Frankly, with all the Canadian consumer has had to put up with for the past 10 years, there is likely to be a reasonably large number of Canadians who’d support Air 2000 and Signature. Fed by anti-Air Canada attitudes on all fronts.

It will take months for an alternative to arrive on the scene. The hopeful startups already stating their wishes to compete with Air Canada.
Will we ever learn?

Angus Kinear is talking about creating a charter airline from the remnants of Canada 3000.
Michel Leblanc is talking about an Eastern Canada based, low-cost carrier, modelled after ‘Southwest’. (Didn’t CanJet just fail with that idea before C3 rushed in?)

Who knows what we’ll end up with? But this might very well be a timely and sensible short term solution to a problem the industry in Canada is going to face for some time to come.

Whether or not it’s our First Choice, remains to be seen.

[Willie Everlearn]

Collenette tells Air Canada to reduce market share

By STEVEN CHASE
Globe and Mail Update

Ottawa — Ottawa will re-regulate the airline industry unless Air Canada yields domestic market share to smaller competitors, Transport Minister David Collenette warned Tuesday.
"We have said to them ... we're going to have to find ways to basically reduce your domestic [market] share. Otherwise, frankly, Parliament's going to have to re-regulate the entire industry," he told a Senate transport committee Thursday.
"We cannot have one operator out there without competition."
Mr. Collenette was addressing the fact that Air Canada has a domestic market share of about 80 per cent in the wake of the demise of rival Canada 3000 — a situation he described as "untenable."
Under federal legislation, Air Canada is required to fly smaller routes until the end of next year. Mr. Collenette said smaller airlines could take over those routes, leaving Air Canada to fly the larger ones.
"That's something we have to discuss," he said. "You can't continue to force them to serve those communities and then also say: 'You have to make a deal with us to reduce your market share.'"
Air Canada's market share fell from about 80 per cent at the time it acquired Canadian Airlines to about 70 per cent before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, because of quick growth at WestJet and Canada 3000.

Last month, Mr. Collenette said Canadian travellers shouldn't count on foreign airlines to provide domestic competition.
Mr. Collenette also said that, despite the competition challenges arising from the demise of Canada 3000, he has no immediate plans to open Canada's skies to U.S. carriers.
But he said the Canadian industry still deserves a chance to fix the gap before turning to outside the country. He said he would expect Calgary-based WestJet Airlines Ltd. and Air Transat, a subsidiary of Transat A.T. Inc. of Montreal, to expand services to provide competition for Air Canada.
Air Canada executives, who followed Mr. Collenette at the committee, said they are as anxious as the government to reach a solution.
"Eighty per cent market share is a curse in many ways," said senior vice-president Peter Donolo. "It sets us up as a target, as everybody's favourite whipping boy."

[Tan]

Duke Elegant

What happened Duke, AC turn you down?

[AIRLIFT]

Skyservice is the one that's been doing the flying in the UK for te past few summers. They are also te ones that won the contracts from signature when they were up for grabs. The main reason behide this, is that no one else wanted to agree to the terms of signature ( Air 2000 would fly in canada durring the winter).

As for not enough capacity in YYZ or else where in Canada, It's the bigest joke of the year. Just talk with the hundreds of pilot and other airline employes that are unemployed because the maket could not support the over capacity it had before C3 folded. The botom line is they went out of bisness cause the load factor was too low.

Given the situation of aviation in Canada right now I hope that the govement will let things stablize befor they do anything stupid....

And aviatter Get a life........

[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: AIRLIFT ]

[Web-Footed Flyer]

Hey Hey Airlift well Said !!!

[basil fawlty]

I can understand the need to limit the traffic rights given to overseas operators in certain countries, by allowing access to a large domestic market with very little worth having in return.
However, let us not confuse the two completely seperate issues of airline operations and the free movement of labour.
It never ceases to amaze me how the most international of businesses (aviation) is one of the most restrictive when it comes to the validation of foreign qualifications (licences). If the UK CAA, or any other aviation regulator elsewhere, considers that a pilot is not competent to operate an aircraft based on a validation of a foreign licence then why are they permitted to operate in UK or national airspace at all, as crew on a foreign registered aircraft? The answer is, unfortunately, well known; FINANCIAL AND REGULATORY PROTECTIONISM, mainly in the interest of the regulators and training organisations. Either a flightcrew member is capable of operating an aircraft safely or he is not. The registration markings painted on the outside are totally irrelevent. This is hypocricy at its finest. I am not suggesting there would be a mass migration of pilots, engineers etc due to cultural and language barriers (This is why the fudamental concept of the JAA is a failure) but at least the system would be fair, which right now it ain't! Perhaps all those who are moaning about the fact that holders of foreign licenses are operating here should consider this point- What if the thousands of British pilots working abroad were given the "silver bullet" because all the work was to go to nationals not expats?? They would flock home and there wouldn't be a flying job to be had in this country for the next ten years!! See, it works both ways. Makes me wonder what ICAO actually does too. This is little more than a luncheon club I think.

[Airprox]

If Air 2000 get this contract will I get my job back?

[Willie Everlearn]

Basil


I couldn't agree with you more.
But, we'll see.

[gumbi]

SQUACK 8888! where do you get your info as to AT being well connected to the Liberal party? first time I hear that one! and it's funny!

[m&v]

First of all,Air2000,is part of or is owned by 'First Choice',the parent Company for 'Signature Vacations.Signature is on,or has,signed a contract for "SKYSERVICE" to undertake ,or some of,the flying originally to be flown by Canada3000(Financial Post 5th).Air Transat also hopes to fly more,than planned,this winter(their Ads' abound)..
Sky's hired quite a few 'qualified'guys/girls from C3,to cover the expansion(with some aircraft from ex C3).
According to the 'post'there's to be an announcement next few days.

[RATBOY]

There WAS a ban on non-US reg non-air carrier operations. something about people flying in with A/C full of who knows what going who knows where (talk about open skies!). The ban on part 91 operations by foreign reg A/C is not total, you have to file a flight plan and get a clearance, kind of like a prior permission authorization for a military airfield used to be.

If other countries want to let N reg aircraft operate, that is their call. Since so many do I guess they just recognize the value/quality/capability/whatever that comes with it.

If Canada is to be considered like a 51st state why don't they harmonize their air regulation and commerce with US, make it one big market rather than one big (US) and one dinky (Canada) and provide the benefits of competition to our neighbors to the north. Let's see, those benefits are lower fares and more choices if you are flying from one big hub to another. If you are flying from East Jeasus to Podunk forget it. Hmmm lots of East Jeasuss and Podunks in Canada so maybe that wouldn't be so hot. But then NAVCANADA could run FAA ATC as a partial privatized organization

[Willie Everlearn]

RATBOY

Great suggestion. When our governments stop fighting over softwood lumber and NAFTA, maybe we'll get it on and North America will end up one market.

With the state of the airline industry up here, not that yours is much better, it seems like a sensible and viable suggestion that many of our elected officials seem to be considering.


But, alas, most licenced pilots up here want protectionist policies and are unlikely to agree with the suggestion.

[Scud Runner]

Signature will not sign with Air Transat for the long term because Air Transat owns a tour operator. Why buy lift from your own competitor if there's another alternative? I fully expect that Air 2000 will get the go-ahead to fly in Canada this winter. After that, Signature will sign a contract with Skyservice for several dedicated aircraft, something they had when they were with Royal (may it rest in pieces) Airlines.

Canadians who would protest against this should remember how many Canadian pilots have had the benefit of employment through some U.K. charter carriers for several years now.

Scud

[snow storm]

I have been flying overseas for the last 2 years because there's no job in Canada so .......I can not believe that there is no one up north capable of starting something solid like Transat or Westjet .
[img]null[/img]

[tomvanmigem]

Protectionism is only one of the obstacles every airline has to face, and governments should promote the aviation industry instead of heading in the direction that the Middle East terrorists are hoping for.

Whatever the decisions made by governments to aid the world aviation industry, I hope they keep the most important people in focus: the pilots themselves. Are we not in the best position to navigate? (Based on the current discussion, I'd say yes)

Last line on my CV:
"...Fluent in English, French, Dutch. Will learn Inuit, evade lumberjacks that are "OK" (and other polar predators) and have pledged to re-introduce new elements into the northern DNA-pool."

Wish me luck!

[RATBOY]

Willie- Your name asks the question and I think you know the answer.

The problems Canadian and US airlines have in common are that the bright new jets (even RJs, I think if they can manage to get out of everyone else's way) need lots of punters in the back. To get lots of punters in the back you either get a bunch of paxs in one spot or make lots of stops. Don't think there are more than a half dozen or so places to get enough paxs together in Canada, so you then have to feed with smaller aircraft. The feed with commuter/smaller carriers trick is somewhat disruptive, but does require more pilots.

The economics of the situation don't support many carriers and flights, including charters. Certainly can appreciate a degree of protective/restrictive policy to benefit the locals. Believe the benefit runs mostly to airline owners/operators that want a cozy little monopoly and indirectly but more importantly to the banks and other capital investors that want their investments to be safe. The pilots and staff are on and off work as needed and many want to be mobile internationally so they are on work more than off. This is especially important for staff in a relatively small aviation industry like Canada's. It is somewhat easier for Canadian staff to be mobile, I suppose, because of their rep (well deserved from my experience) of being well trained and well qualified and some even speak english (eh?).

Remember that the best way to make a million $ (even Canadian ones) in aviation is to start with 2 million

[Willie Everlearn]

Liberals have split personality on airlines

By MATHEW INGRAM
Globe and Mail Update
In the Farrelly brothers' comedy Me, Myself and Irene, Jim Carrey plays a man with a split personality who keeps waking up and discovering that his alter ego has caused all sorts of havoc, which he then has to try and fix. Federal Transport Minister David Collenette would get a terrible sense of deja vu watching this particular movie, because his reaction to the current state of the airline industry is remarkably similar.
"How did Air Canada's market share get so huge?" Mr. Collenette asks himself, upon waking up from a deep sleep. "That isn't right. Why doesn't someone do something? I'm going to have to take strong action to correct this outrageous situation." In reality, of course, it was the Transport Minister and his own government who created the situation that Mr. Collenette now describes as "untenable," by pushing Air Canada to merge with Canadian Airlines and then arranging things so the deal could proceed.
In particular, the Liberals — led by Mr. Collenette — effectively tied up the competition bureau and its commissioner, Konrad von Finckenstein, by suspending the federal Competition Act and preventing them from conducting a comprehensive review of the merger. Now, all of a sudden, Mr. Collenette is saying that firm action must be taken against Air Canada, and Industry Minister Brian Tobin is passing new competition laws that give the bureau more power to levy fines, impose cease-and-desist orders, and so on.
What happened to change Mr. Collenette's mind? Why, Air Canada has used its size, borrowing power and massive fleet to become a hydra-headed beast that competes with virtually every other airline out there. Running a charter like Canada 3000? Air Canada is in that business too, using its money-losing main routes and other operations to subsidize its new Tango unit. Running a discount airline like WestJet? Air Canada will soon be in that business too, doing pretty much the same thing with its new discount operation called Zip (named for how much money it will make, no doubt).
Perhaps Mr. Collenette was under the impression that when Air Canada merged with Canadian, the resulting entity would be subservient to Ottawa — competing just enough to keep prices low, but not enough to put other competitors out of business; flying to every little podunk town in the country, and employing thousands more people than it could afford to pay, but at the same time not raising ticket prices, or firing people in that inconvenient way that private companies do. Instead, this airline version of Frankenstein's monster wreaks havoc — sometimes without even meaning to.
The inconvenient fact is that corporations cannot be turned into instruments of public policy, no matter how much the government wishes they could be. That's what Crown corporations are for, which is why they so often fail by the traditional standards of the business world. Pushing Air Canada and Canadian together may have served all sorts of purposes from Ottawa's point of view, but it is ludicrous to set up such a situation and then expect the company you helped create to refrain from competing with whatever tools it has — which is essentially what Air Canada is trying to do.
Not surprisingly, Mr. Collenette now says he is considering virtually any option, including so-called "sixth freedom" rights that would allow U.S. carriers to pick up Canadian passengers and fly them to Canadian destinations (through a U.S. hub). But at the same time, he says the industry may have to be reregulated. What kind of solution would that be? Even now, conspiracy theorists are putting together the theory that the entire Air Canada/Canadian merger was just a way of making the industry so dysfunctional that Ottawa would have to step in and take the reins again.
Mr. Collenette and his Liberal counterparts are like children whose new puppy grows into a full-sized dog — frustrated that their pet won't do their bidding. Instead of trying the corporate equivalent of gene-splicing to create a company that would serve their purposes, the government should have let Canadian Airlines go under and then restructure itself through bankruptcy proceedings, a route which might have left a smaller, competitive carrier. Between that and WestJet, the market might be a whole lot less imbalanced (although Canada 3000's failure was largely its own doing).
Now, the government is reduced to threatening Air Canada with reregulation, pushing new competition legislation, and muttering about sixth freedoms and cabotage with the United States — as though its own policies had nothing to do with the mess that currently exists in the industry.