HKG MD-11 Crash Video Released
I thought I wouldn't order a Personal Title to help offset the many thousands of pounds a month it costs to run PPRuNe. Nah... I'll just sit here and moan about it.
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Hi Peeps,
Just revisiting the thread, looking at the port/left wingtip at touchdown it immediatley goes rapidly upward as if in one hell of a hard landing/bounce. Pilots or windshear thats for investigators to use onboard systems to analyse? Clearly you then see the wing going upwards as the right/starboard wing is catching on fire and then raising to the point of going vertically as the fire increase as if the right wing has almost left the aircraft, hence the inverted resting position.
Scares me that heavy landings even on some turn-rounds are logged as Inspected no fault found, should go in for NDT test or have accelerometers telling you how hard it was.
Still thats life and expense.
Cheers GD
Just revisiting the thread, looking at the port/left wingtip at touchdown it immediatley goes rapidly upward as if in one hell of a hard landing/bounce. Pilots or windshear thats for investigators to use onboard systems to analyse? Clearly you then see the wing going upwards as the right/starboard wing is catching on fire and then raising to the point of going vertically as the fire increase as if the right wing has almost left the aircraft, hence the inverted resting position.
Scares me that heavy landings even on some turn-rounds are logged as Inspected no fault found, should go in for NDT test or have accelerometers telling you how hard it was.
Still thats life and expense.
Cheers GD
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The photos of the aircraft lying upside down remind me of the FedEx MD 11 that had an incident at Newark (EWR) a few years back. Although the weather was not similar, I wonder if any other factors may have been in common between the two.
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Seeing that photo above with the overhead lockers crushing the tops of the seats, it is amazing that only 3 were killed out of over 300.
I realise it may not be a design fault too, but isn't the MD-11 known as a tricky machine to fly ? ?
With those swept back wings, and being i guess a little tail heavy with a small rudder, is it not a bit of a handful , particularly on landing?
Personally, i love the plane, its so unique in design and concept (though being an updated DC10).
I think it's sad that its had a relatively short career compared to many of it's contemporaries, and believe that all pax versions but a few in Asia will be converted to Cargo ops soon
Obviously , it never came up to its promise in terms of range/fuelburn , but nevertheless was a good idea at the time of its design stage in the 80's, till the 'twin' took over the roost.
I realise it may not be a design fault too, but isn't the MD-11 known as a tricky machine to fly ? ?
With those swept back wings, and being i guess a little tail heavy with a small rudder, is it not a bit of a handful , particularly on landing?
Personally, i love the plane, its so unique in design and concept (though being an updated DC10).
I think it's sad that its had a relatively short career compared to many of it's contemporaries, and believe that all pax versions but a few in Asia will be converted to Cargo ops soon
Obviously , it never came up to its promise in terms of range/fuelburn , but nevertheless was a good idea at the time of its design stage in the 80's, till the 'twin' took over the roost.
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What is it then to watch out if it comes to such weather? I hear a lot about tropical storms but do not know what is the difference to European weather.
Dani
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Dani
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Obviously , it never came up to its promise in terms of range/fuelburn ...
I thought I wouldn't order a Personal Title to help offset the many thousands of pounds a month it costs to run PPRuNe. Nah... I'll just sit here and moan about it.
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Hey Dani
Bigger, more ferocious, more unpredictable, longer lasting, you name it its got it. Having flown around Europe most of my life and now in my recent job flying mainly through the monsoon and into tropical cyclones, then Europe has very little to compare. However, the rest of the world only has a few places like Europe that can give the snow and fog as continuously as Europe does over the winter season.
Cheers GD
Bigger, more ferocious, more unpredictable, longer lasting, you name it its got it. Having flown around Europe most of my life and now in my recent job flying mainly through the monsoon and into tropical cyclones, then Europe has very little to compare. However, the rest of the world only has a few places like Europe that can give the snow and fog as continuously as Europe does over the winter season.
Cheers GD
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Thanks for the info spagiola; yes it is a widely held perception,and its interesting to know that it was re-designed in some way to overcome that.
How was this shortfall overcome?
Would be very interested to know please?
How was this shortfall overcome?
Would be very interested to know please?
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As an aside:
The crash video was filmed by an off-duty Cathay pilot while he was testing his new camera. The original captures a lot more than the edited, low-bandwidth version offered by the SCMP.
The video was immediately made available to the FAA and HKCAD as well as BAC for the accident investigation in the belief that it may have helped to exonerate the crew. It was specifically and deliberately withheld from the media despite a very significant cash offer for the tape from a Cable News Network (over six figures USD). The Cathay pilot refused all offers and chooses to remain anonymous.
It has been available for viewing in the offices of the HKAOA since the accident, and has been viewed by dozens of FedEx, EVA and CAL crews. The video was not allowed out of the AOA offices.
The decision to make the tape available to the SCMP was made after the preliminary report on the accident tended to point fingers at the operating crew as the primary cause, rather than the inadequate wind shear detection and reporting system.
Bad old AOA strikes again...
What do you say about that, Cliffie Clavin?
The crash video was filmed by an off-duty Cathay pilot while he was testing his new camera. The original captures a lot more than the edited, low-bandwidth version offered by the SCMP.
The video was immediately made available to the FAA and HKCAD as well as BAC for the accident investigation in the belief that it may have helped to exonerate the crew. It was specifically and deliberately withheld from the media despite a very significant cash offer for the tape from a Cable News Network (over six figures USD). The Cathay pilot refused all offers and chooses to remain anonymous.
It has been available for viewing in the offices of the HKAOA since the accident, and has been viewed by dozens of FedEx, EVA and CAL crews. The video was not allowed out of the AOA offices.
The decision to make the tape available to the SCMP was made after the preliminary report on the accident tended to point fingers at the operating crew as the primary cause, rather than the inadequate wind shear detection and reporting system.
Bad old AOA strikes again...
What do you say about that, Cliffie Clavin?
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Hi Dani,
As GD says, bigger and nastier. I spent many years dealing with them, so a few thoughts. Fuel is the first one. Lots of it gives you options, particularly as the extent and duration of these systems can either close your alternate, or the route to it, and the sheer number of aircraft disrupted can progressively saturate the close-in airfields. Also, and just as importantly, a landing weight up towards the higher end will give an increased wing loading, resulting in less gust response. The 747 was extremely `frisky' at very light weights even in good weather, but a pleasure at Max Landing Weight as long as the speed was maintained. Swept wings as you will know hate to get slow, as slow will give you a high sink rate as appeared to happen to this MD11. Fast, within reason, keeps you on the right side of the drag curve, better conrol authority, and if it does go wrong a good start to the missed approach (Speed losses of 30 Kts or so are not unusual in Typhoon conditions, and if the approach was at Vref+5, pulling the stick back will do nothing at Vref-20 or so!)
These conditions will normally be beyond the capabilities of the automatics, and a smooth as silk autoland on a flooded runway with a max crosswind is probably not the best start to the ground roll.
A little thought could be given to minima for the approach. I remember reading a UK AIC many years ago which, referring to CAT 1 and 2 approaches, mentioned:`The minima for these approaches are designed for the fog case, with little or no wind drift. If significant wind is present, serious consideration should be given to increasing the minima'. Further to this, I was told by an Ancient Aviator `I can happily do 200Ft/600M all day and the same for limiting crosswinds onto soaking runways, But sorting them all out together is pushing the operation well toward the outer edges of the envelope' I liked that, so as a good youg pilot, I stole it, and it has served me well.
Finally, decisions.
1) TOD... Do I really wish to do this, and is there a very good chance of a safe landing? Pick a sensible DH and brief it, with the emphasis on the Goaround.
2) Commencing the approach... Make sure that your alternate is still there for you, the last thing you want to find out on the G/A is that it closed 20 Min. ago, review the decision to make the approach in view of the latest WX.
3) At your DH... decide whether a landing looks on. If so fly the A/C into the flare position, keeping the speed agressively under control (too much is better than too little, stopping distance is not normally critical in these conditions, there is normally a howling headwind component, and if the LDA is critical, perhaps step one was a mistake!)
4) At the flare point...How's the speed, am I tracking the centreline, am I at a reasonable point for a touchdown?
5) If Yes...Firmly place the A/C on the ground (Autobrakes are really a good idea).
6)The most important Bit...How Did That Go? Am I firmly down, under control, tracking the centreline, with a touchdown point around where I was aiming? If any of these are not there, easy, push up the power and go. If the approach was flown properly, you should still be at least 1.4VS or so and flying her off should be no problem, the spoilers should auto stow, autobarakes cancel, and you're away. If you're happy, then commit and pull reverse, and get busy keeping straight and stopping. Don't relax, I've found that very often the real fun starts at this point! ( The bit in the manuals about reducing reverse if you start having directional problems really works!). Finally take it easy on the way in, flooded and invisible taxiways loose and blowing baggage containers etc are all waiting to spoil your day.
Sorry this has gone on a bit, but I thought there are a few things I've been taught over the years that are worth putting out there.
One last point, if the G/A path looks nasty when on finals, that's the time to talk to ATC and see if you can negotiate an alternative, not as you are in the G/A. They understand and will do all possible to help (Thanks for many Occasions in the past chaps)
As GD says, bigger and nastier. I spent many years dealing with them, so a few thoughts. Fuel is the first one. Lots of it gives you options, particularly as the extent and duration of these systems can either close your alternate, or the route to it, and the sheer number of aircraft disrupted can progressively saturate the close-in airfields. Also, and just as importantly, a landing weight up towards the higher end will give an increased wing loading, resulting in less gust response. The 747 was extremely `frisky' at very light weights even in good weather, but a pleasure at Max Landing Weight as long as the speed was maintained. Swept wings as you will know hate to get slow, as slow will give you a high sink rate as appeared to happen to this MD11. Fast, within reason, keeps you on the right side of the drag curve, better conrol authority, and if it does go wrong a good start to the missed approach (Speed losses of 30 Kts or so are not unusual in Typhoon conditions, and if the approach was at Vref+5, pulling the stick back will do nothing at Vref-20 or so!)
These conditions will normally be beyond the capabilities of the automatics, and a smooth as silk autoland on a flooded runway with a max crosswind is probably not the best start to the ground roll.
A little thought could be given to minima for the approach. I remember reading a UK AIC many years ago which, referring to CAT 1 and 2 approaches, mentioned:`The minima for these approaches are designed for the fog case, with little or no wind drift. If significant wind is present, serious consideration should be given to increasing the minima'. Further to this, I was told by an Ancient Aviator `I can happily do 200Ft/600M all day and the same for limiting crosswinds onto soaking runways, But sorting them all out together is pushing the operation well toward the outer edges of the envelope' I liked that, so as a good youg pilot, I stole it, and it has served me well.
Finally, decisions.
1) TOD... Do I really wish to do this, and is there a very good chance of a safe landing? Pick a sensible DH and brief it, with the emphasis on the Goaround.
2) Commencing the approach... Make sure that your alternate is still there for you, the last thing you want to find out on the G/A is that it closed 20 Min. ago, review the decision to make the approach in view of the latest WX.
3) At your DH... decide whether a landing looks on. If so fly the A/C into the flare position, keeping the speed agressively under control (too much is better than too little, stopping distance is not normally critical in these conditions, there is normally a howling headwind component, and if the LDA is critical, perhaps step one was a mistake!)
4) At the flare point...How's the speed, am I tracking the centreline, am I at a reasonable point for a touchdown?
5) If Yes...Firmly place the A/C on the ground (Autobrakes are really a good idea).
6)The most important Bit...How Did That Go? Am I firmly down, under control, tracking the centreline, with a touchdown point around where I was aiming? If any of these are not there, easy, push up the power and go. If the approach was flown properly, you should still be at least 1.4VS or so and flying her off should be no problem, the spoilers should auto stow, autobarakes cancel, and you're away. If you're happy, then commit and pull reverse, and get busy keeping straight and stopping. Don't relax, I've found that very often the real fun starts at this point! ( The bit in the manuals about reducing reverse if you start having directional problems really works!). Finally take it easy on the way in, flooded and invisible taxiways loose and blowing baggage containers etc are all waiting to spoil your day.
Sorry this has gone on a bit, but I thought there are a few things I've been taught over the years that are worth putting out there.
One last point, if the G/A path looks nasty when on finals, that's the time to talk to ATC and see if you can negotiate an alternative, not as you are in the G/A. They understand and will do all possible to help (Thanks for many Occasions in the past chaps)
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Frenzy
Someone of Italian heritage has a bad day at Kai Tak (now closed) on 13 (who hasn't??)...and your point is??
Are you saying this is the same a/c and the same LHS...just different airport different livery and different uniform? Even with a perfect match, I don't get the point.
Perhaps you could enlighten us?
Someone of Italian heritage has a bad day at Kai Tak (now closed) on 13 (who hasn't??)...and your point is??
Are you saying this is the same a/c and the same LHS...just different airport different livery and different uniform? Even with a perfect match, I don't get the point.
Perhaps you could enlighten us?
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No harm intended..........just thought people might have wanted to see it.
In no way did i mean to connect the two together.
Have a nice day
In no way did i mean to connect the two together.
Have a nice day
Last edited by Frenzy; 10th Oct 2003 at 17:07.
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Used to be Taipei or Manila but these days, depending on wx, you can go to any number of places...Shenzen, Guangzhou, Kaohsiung, Xiamen.
Capt Y
So that is part of the Hanoi Rd video? Doesn't quite look or sound thesame to me, but the points you make are very valid and totally commendable. The un-named CX pilot who got the footage is indeed a man of high moral character and a man made greater by his anonymity.
Fragman
Well said. and thank God for Ancient Aviators. My there always be enough of them to go around.
Capt Y
So that is part of the Hanoi Rd video? Doesn't quite look or sound thesame to me, but the points you make are very valid and totally commendable. The un-named CX pilot who got the footage is indeed a man of high moral character and a man made greater by his anonymity.
Fragman
Well said. and thank God for Ancient Aviators. My there always be enough of them to go around.
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Scanscanscan.....perhaps you might remember the L1011 incidents at BZZ and NRT...perhaps 3 engines is the problem?
Just which airline was flying this aircraft.....are you SURE it was CAL.....did they fly MD11 at this time?
Just which airline was flying this aircraft.....are you SURE it was CAL.....did they fly MD11 at this time?
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Schrodinger's-
As I remember the aircraft was painted with the Mandarin Airlines livery, making them part and parcel of CAL.
More generally,
I was living on Lantau Island, HK at the time and remember that night vividly. As I recall, the aircraft came to rest a few meters from the airport fire station in the pouring rain, no small factor in the high survival rate.
The recent public release of the crash video has, predictably, made rather lurid headlines in HK. One thing it has done is expose a whole host of flaws in the HKCAD's accident investigation. As far as I can tell, it seems there's been four years of finger pointing going on between the HK government and CAL, both of whom seemed quite happy to hang the unfortunate Captain out to dry.
Sadly, I can't provide any links here, but those of you with access to the SCMP can easily read the archived files, from Sept 28th of this year (I think).
cheers
As I remember the aircraft was painted with the Mandarin Airlines livery, making them part and parcel of CAL.
More generally,
I was living on Lantau Island, HK at the time and remember that night vividly. As I recall, the aircraft came to rest a few meters from the airport fire station in the pouring rain, no small factor in the high survival rate.
The recent public release of the crash video has, predictably, made rather lurid headlines in HK. One thing it has done is expose a whole host of flaws in the HKCAD's accident investigation. As far as I can tell, it seems there's been four years of finger pointing going on between the HK government and CAL, both of whom seemed quite happy to hang the unfortunate Captain out to dry.
Sadly, I can't provide any links here, but those of you with access to the SCMP can easily read the archived files, from Sept 28th of this year (I think).
cheers
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Oldage84...
Macau whilst legal IMHO it is too close to HKK to flightplan as a diversion in such weather systems.
When the detailed weather forcasts are wrong I like fuel onboard not still in the fuel pit.
Fuel gives me more thinking time and diversion options outside of the bad weather system.
The Company Cfp loading only alternate fuel for Macau is a trap for a newly trained min fuel Captain.
Having scared the c..p out of themselves they never trust the company system 100% again to fully take care of them.
Fraggman88... Was told by the L1011 test pilots that its autoland was designed to impact onto very wet runways.
This was the reason given for a certain positive impact on touchdown on any calm dry day autoland.
They also said they had used autoland in up to 55kts X wind and the only reason the L1011 was not certified for that was they could not find 55kts during the certification period. They suggested off the record if ever poorly placed and you "Had" to land in bad conditions the aircraft autoland would see you safer than any man land.
I was also asked how often I was trained in the sim. for manual landings exceeding the certified wind limitations.
Schrodingers Cat....I missed the BZZ and NRT L1011 incidents.
My company basically closed down is Flight Saftey publication and distribution system to its pilots to save money.
They have reactivated it again in a hurry after a serious crash.
So I guess their first decision was not cost effective.
Whilst no expert... I would feel less likely to scrape something flying a three engined L1011 than a four engine poded on the wing B707 type.
Macau whilst legal IMHO it is too close to HKK to flightplan as a diversion in such weather systems.
When the detailed weather forcasts are wrong I like fuel onboard not still in the fuel pit.
Fuel gives me more thinking time and diversion options outside of the bad weather system.
The Company Cfp loading only alternate fuel for Macau is a trap for a newly trained min fuel Captain.
Having scared the c..p out of themselves they never trust the company system 100% again to fully take care of them.
Fraggman88... Was told by the L1011 test pilots that its autoland was designed to impact onto very wet runways.
This was the reason given for a certain positive impact on touchdown on any calm dry day autoland.
They also said they had used autoland in up to 55kts X wind and the only reason the L1011 was not certified for that was they could not find 55kts during the certification period. They suggested off the record if ever poorly placed and you "Had" to land in bad conditions the aircraft autoland would see you safer than any man land.
I was also asked how often I was trained in the sim. for manual landings exceeding the certified wind limitations.
Schrodingers Cat....I missed the BZZ and NRT L1011 incidents.
My company basically closed down is Flight Saftey publication and distribution system to its pilots to save money.
They have reactivated it again in a hurry after a serious crash.
So I guess their first decision was not cost effective.
Whilst no expert... I would feel less likely to scrape something flying a three engined L1011 than a four engine poded on the wing B707 type.
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The BZZ L1011 incident was a complete stuff-up by the crew...a late engagement of the autopilot on short final.
In order for the TriStar approach/land system to function properly, the autopilot(s) must be engaged so that autoland track can be established correctly, ie: at 1500agl, or 25 seconds after glidepath capture, whichever is later.
If these folks had RTFB, they would have known.
However, as it was the RAF, maybe reading the book was not a requirement...
The MD-11 has a horizontal stab that is reduded in size from the DC10 by a significant amount, and has reduced elevator effectiveness at approach speeds compared to the DC10...so i'm told by a training Captain at DAL some time ago.
In order for the TriStar approach/land system to function properly, the autopilot(s) must be engaged so that autoland track can be established correctly, ie: at 1500agl, or 25 seconds after glidepath capture, whichever is later.
If these folks had RTFB, they would have known.
However, as it was the RAF, maybe reading the book was not a requirement...
The MD-11 has a horizontal stab that is reduded in size from the DC10 by a significant amount, and has reduced elevator effectiveness at approach speeds compared to the DC10...so i'm told by a training Captain at DAL some time ago.