BA to consider anti-missile systems for it's fleet ?
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BA to consider anti-missile systems for it's fleet ?
BBC News reporting the above ...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3083748.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3083748.stm
Last edited by ghost-rider; 5th Sep 2003 at 20:20.
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Bloody hell! Bit of a sad day for aviation!
Anyone know how effective these systems are? As I understand it there are 2 types, the IR heat seeking type which obviously this system would have a chance of deterring. However Is there not the type which are guided by the operator after launch. With a 747 it wouldn't take an idiot to miss it.
I really do hope this doesn't materialise. As the article says the perimeter should be safe enough. Next we'll be learning how to fire sidewinders!
Anyone know how effective these systems are? As I understand it there are 2 types, the IR heat seeking type which obviously this system would have a chance of deterring. However Is there not the type which are guided by the operator after launch. With a 747 it wouldn't take an idiot to miss it.
I really do hope this doesn't materialise. As the article says the perimeter should be safe enough. Next we'll be learning how to fire sidewinders!
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Nice one...
What would happen if this chaff would be released accidentally in let's say RVSM airspace? There we are, flying through a cloud of aluminium over the Atlantic at 30W...
Will pilots at BA get a military pension on top of their normal one once they are equiped with this material??
FT
What would happen if this chaff would be released accidentally in let's say RVSM airspace? There we are, flying through a cloud of aluminium over the Atlantic at 30W...
Will pilots at BA get a military pension on top of their normal one once they are equiped with this material??
FT
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Would be a nice alternative for all those FE's who are being made redundant... Let's make them Fight Engineers!!!
"Captain, we got a bogey at 6... Should I engage??"
FT
"Captain, we got a bogey at 6... Should I engage??"
FT
Whilst MANPADS are getting all the attention as they are a sexy story for the media to show pictures of one has to wonder if in reality they would be worth the hassle.
A .50 cal machine gun and 300 rounds would, one imagines, be cheaper to procure, store and use.
I'd rather face an ageing MANPAD of dubious provenance, deigned to track low bypass engines, in the hands of a poorly trained terrorist than I would a steady stream of .50 shells.
We all know that a great deal has been done to appear to tighten security post Sept11th.
We all know how laughable most of that has been.
Proper passenger profiling as conducted by El Al seems to be the best approach. But thats not PC.
Cheers,
WWW
A .50 cal machine gun and 300 rounds would, one imagines, be cheaper to procure, store and use.
I'd rather face an ageing MANPAD of dubious provenance, deigned to track low bypass engines, in the hands of a poorly trained terrorist than I would a steady stream of .50 shells.
We all know that a great deal has been done to appear to tighten security post Sept11th.
We all know how laughable most of that has been.
Proper passenger profiling as conducted by El Al seems to be the best approach. But thats not PC.
Cheers,
WWW
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Hmmmm ..... fly higher, faster and hit back harder .... sounds like an all concorde fleet with some anti-missile devices could be a real marketing strategy.
"BA, the worlds safest airline."
"Hello, Smithsonian, can we have our concorde back ?"
"BA, the worlds safest airline."
"Hello, Smithsonian, can we have our concorde back ?"
Swounger
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El AL already has some:
"Sources inform “Globes” that the Ministry of Defense has chosen Elta Electronic Industries’ system as the most suitable for defending Israeli airliners against missile attacks. Military orders for the $1 million system have totaled $150 million. The system, which operates by the conventional method of launching decoy flares at incoming missiles, includes decoy devices developed by Israel Military Industries (IMI). "
http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/glob...asp?did=720992
"Sources inform “Globes” that the Ministry of Defense has chosen Elta Electronic Industries’ system as the most suitable for defending Israeli airliners against missile attacks. Military orders for the $1 million system have totaled $150 million. The system, which operates by the conventional method of launching decoy flares at incoming missiles, includes decoy devices developed by Israel Military Industries (IMI). "
http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/glob...asp?did=720992
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There are a number of systems available for counter-MANPADS installations. Flare decoys are just one solution, and a primitive one at that. Current generation counter-IR/counter-UV systems use an electronic arrangement to defeat the missile. There is the threat from Stinger missiles provided to the Mujahadin in Afghanistan during the 80's to defeat the Mi-24 Hind, there must be a considerable number of these available to Al-Qaeda.
There is also a theoretical threat from radar guided SAM's, there could be any number of Russian systems such as SA-6 Gainful which was extensively used in the Middle East, or even SA-11 Gadfly. Being vehicle mounted, they’re not the sort of system you could sneak through rural Southall and park in Tesco's car park, but with a range of about 30km, they could be fired from friendly countries in the Middle East against overflying British and American targets. Although no match for a modern military aircraft with full ECM, a Speedbird 747 is a rat in a barrel.
I can't imagine such sophisticated ECM suites being fitted to BA's aeroplanes against this kind of radar threat, the costs would be astronomical and would have to be developed from scratch. Some systems would require the services of an EWO, so perhaps we better not pension of all the FE's yet.
A basic counter IR/counter UV system is however a viable, if expensive deterrent. For the added protection, I can envisage a premium would be considered acceptable.
For 40 years the USSR and the West eyeballed each other with hands on weapons. They didn't fire though, because both realised the costs to each other would be unthinkable. An Islamic terrorist however has no such inhibitions. If they acquire any of these weapons, they'll use them without a second thought. That's why I welcome BA's move today.
Let's hope we can stop them getting nuclear weapons.
I’ll take on the opposition anyday. It’s my management I can’t beat!
There is also a theoretical threat from radar guided SAM's, there could be any number of Russian systems such as SA-6 Gainful which was extensively used in the Middle East, or even SA-11 Gadfly. Being vehicle mounted, they’re not the sort of system you could sneak through rural Southall and park in Tesco's car park, but with a range of about 30km, they could be fired from friendly countries in the Middle East against overflying British and American targets. Although no match for a modern military aircraft with full ECM, a Speedbird 747 is a rat in a barrel.
I can't imagine such sophisticated ECM suites being fitted to BA's aeroplanes against this kind of radar threat, the costs would be astronomical and would have to be developed from scratch. Some systems would require the services of an EWO, so perhaps we better not pension of all the FE's yet.
A basic counter IR/counter UV system is however a viable, if expensive deterrent. For the added protection, I can envisage a premium would be considered acceptable.
For 40 years the USSR and the West eyeballed each other with hands on weapons. They didn't fire though, because both realised the costs to each other would be unthinkable. An Islamic terrorist however has no such inhibitions. If they acquire any of these weapons, they'll use them without a second thought. That's why I welcome BA's move today.
Let's hope we can stop them getting nuclear weapons.
I’ll take on the opposition anyday. It’s my management I can’t beat!
Last edited by Roobarb; 6th Sep 2003 at 00:07.
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About Gunshots... Happened before on a Sabena flight inbound Bujumbura, Burundi (Central Africa)
This is a quote out of Africast, 20 Dec 2000
As I remember well, the crew were very lucky because they normally made an approach on the other runway, so the rebels weren't prepared for the 'non-standard' arrival that was flown that day...
FT
This is a quote out of Africast, 20 Dec 2000
She said the incident was a government matter and Sabena Airlines would only resume flights to Bujumbura after getting the nod from Bujumbura. The Sabena plane had 176 passengers on board when it was attacked by people believed to be rebels from the Rukoko Natural Reserve, a forest that is suspected to shelter many rebels from the Hutu ethnic group.
The forest is close to the Bujumbura International Airport. The Burundi government of Major Pierre Buyoya is dominated by the Tutsi ethnic group. About 13 bullets hit the plane, but only two penetrated into the interior injuring a passenger of Tunisian nationality and a crewmember.
The plane later landed safely at the airport where it was stranded for the whole of last week. Some of its passengers boarded Kenya Airways and Regional Air planes out of the troubled country.
The forest is close to the Bujumbura International Airport. The Burundi government of Major Pierre Buyoya is dominated by the Tutsi ethnic group. About 13 bullets hit the plane, but only two penetrated into the interior injuring a passenger of Tunisian nationality and a crewmember.
The plane later landed safely at the airport where it was stranded for the whole of last week. Some of its passengers boarded Kenya Airways and Regional Air planes out of the troubled country.
FT
I wonder if it will be " allowable " in the MEL ?
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Hi everybody,
this threat has been discussed quite often, but have you ever heard about it in an Israeli Newspaper ?
Here's an article I found today...
El Al first airline to install Elta anti-missile system
Elta managing director: Installing the system on El Al planes will boost international marketing of the system, because El Al is a global leader in airline security.
Dror Marom 4 Sep 03 15:21
Sources inform “Globes” that El Al Israel Airlines (TASE
LAL) will supply some of its passenger jets with anti-missile systems. As far as is known, El Al will be the world’s first airline to install electronic counter-measure systems on its planes.
El Al will install the Flight Guard shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missile deflection system, manufactured by Israel Military Industries (IMI) subsidiary Elta Electronic Industries. Flight Guard includes IMI missile decoy devices. The Ministry of Defense Armaments Research and Development Administration chose the system, and the General Security Services acted as operations consultant.
Elta managing director Israel Livnat said today that the company expected additional orders for the system, both from El Al and from Arkia Airlines and Israir.
The Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee Subcommittee for Security Perception, headed by former Minister of Transport Ephraim Sneh discussed yesterday the installing of advanced technologies by Israeli airlines.
”We were allocated NIS 6 million to finish the international licensing process for the system,” Livnat said. “ The systems will installed first on El Al’s Boeing jets.
”Installing the system on El Al planes will boost international marketing of the system, because El Al is a global leader in airline security. The Ministry of Transport Israel Civil Aviation Authority (ICAA) will register the system, but further registration in the US may be necessary before sales there can begin,” Livnat added.
The global market for civilian airline protection is estimated in the hundreds of millions of dollars over the coming decade. The price tag for Flight Guard is $1 million, Elisra Electronic Systems’ Passive Approach Warning System (PAWS) costs $1.5 million, Rafael’s (Israel Armament Development Company) will be offered for less than $1.5 million, and El-Op Electro-optics Industries is offering the MUlti- Spectral Infrared Countermeasure (MUSIC) system.
El Al declined to comment on the report, saying, “The company does not comment on matters pertaining to security.”
Published by Globes [online] - www.globes.co.il - on September 4, 2003
Happy landings
eagleflight
this threat has been discussed quite often, but have you ever heard about it in an Israeli Newspaper ?
Here's an article I found today...
El Al first airline to install Elta anti-missile system
Elta managing director: Installing the system on El Al planes will boost international marketing of the system, because El Al is a global leader in airline security.
Dror Marom 4 Sep 03 15:21
Sources inform “Globes” that El Al Israel Airlines (TASE
LAL) will supply some of its passenger jets with anti-missile systems. As far as is known, El Al will be the world’s first airline to install electronic counter-measure systems on its planes. El Al will install the Flight Guard shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missile deflection system, manufactured by Israel Military Industries (IMI) subsidiary Elta Electronic Industries. Flight Guard includes IMI missile decoy devices. The Ministry of Defense Armaments Research and Development Administration chose the system, and the General Security Services acted as operations consultant.
Elta managing director Israel Livnat said today that the company expected additional orders for the system, both from El Al and from Arkia Airlines and Israir.
The Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee Subcommittee for Security Perception, headed by former Minister of Transport Ephraim Sneh discussed yesterday the installing of advanced technologies by Israeli airlines.
”We were allocated NIS 6 million to finish the international licensing process for the system,” Livnat said. “ The systems will installed first on El Al’s Boeing jets.
”Installing the system on El Al planes will boost international marketing of the system, because El Al is a global leader in airline security. The Ministry of Transport Israel Civil Aviation Authority (ICAA) will register the system, but further registration in the US may be necessary before sales there can begin,” Livnat added.
The global market for civilian airline protection is estimated in the hundreds of millions of dollars over the coming decade. The price tag for Flight Guard is $1 million, Elisra Electronic Systems’ Passive Approach Warning System (PAWS) costs $1.5 million, Rafael’s (Israel Armament Development Company) will be offered for less than $1.5 million, and El-Op Electro-optics Industries is offering the MUlti- Spectral Infrared Countermeasure (MUSIC) system.
El Al declined to comment on the report, saying, “The company does not comment on matters pertaining to security.”
Published by Globes [online] - www.globes.co.il - on September 4, 2003
Happy landings
eagleflight
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I was an EW specialist many years ago. My knowledge of current techniques is very superficial but one thing has not changed. Electronic Warfare is a constant battle between measure and countermeasure. If airline X spends gazillions fitting kit to nullify current weapons, as sure as night follows day, some boffin will design a way around it. Is this a race that airlines really want to get into? It will probably have an interesting effect on yield and ticket prices.
confundemus
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Dumb question (and thus right up some posters' street) - isn't it the case that the MANPADs are only effective up to a couple of thousand feet? And doesn't your average airliner climb, you know, quite quickly? And so if the bad guys aren't on the (well-monitored) perimeter of the airport, they're guaranteed to miss anyway?