Criminal Records Check - time to come clean, or what ?
Just a numbered other
goatface said:
Au contraire, dear goatface.
This is simply someone covering his six, and in no way a real boost to security.
I am neither paranoid, nor hiding anything, but I object to being treated as a suspect rather than a citizen. How will you feel when your national ID card and computer chipped car let the government track your every movement?
Hang on... does that make me completely paranoid?
Only the completely paranoid and those who have something to hide have any cause to worry.
This is simply someone covering his six, and in no way a real boost to security.
I am neither paranoid, nor hiding anything, but I object to being treated as a suspect rather than a citizen. How will you feel when your national ID card and computer chipped car let the government track your every movement?
Hang on... does that make me completely paranoid?
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unwiseowl, the criminal records search is good only for the date on which it was performed. So yes, fresh search for every renewal of pass, or job change probably.
Disclosure Scotland are used at the moment because they have no backlog and therefore a faster processing time than the English equivalent.
Disclosure Scotland are used at the moment because they have no backlog and therefore a faster processing time than the English equivalent.
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"Procuration of intercourse by false pretences" - who knew this was a crime? Shirly a typo, -lest all of humanity be in the queue for the reject pile.
Security is seriously important in places - airside is definitely such a place. If one wants to do work that is important and connected to real power, it makes sense that one must submit to scrutiny, review, and recurrent vetting.
Personally, though, I find it really sad to see things British overtaken by the martial-law-style of doing, administered with all the sensitivity of the Germans, the efficiency of the Italians, the bureaucracy Napoleanic, details Japanese, procedures Yank and records maintenance, storage, and retrieval a la Russe.
Computers make it all possible, of course. They never forget and never make dkjslss.
Security is seriously important in places - airside is definitely such a place. If one wants to do work that is important and connected to real power, it makes sense that one must submit to scrutiny, review, and recurrent vetting.
Personally, though, I find it really sad to see things British overtaken by the martial-law-style of doing, administered with all the sensitivity of the Germans, the efficiency of the Italians, the bureaucracy Napoleanic, details Japanese, procedures Yank and records maintenance, storage, and retrieval a la Russe.
Computers make it all possible, of course. They never forget and never make dkjslss.
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Non UK nationals
As one or two of you have stated it is strange that non of these checks apply to non-UK nationals. At BA there are 1000 + cabin crew all overseas nationals of which the checks are minimal and this is also the case for other airport / airline staff so the whole exercise seems to be deeply floored from the outset. In addition there are large numbers of Europeans working for UK based airlines and some of the USA carriers. In general I do not doubt the integrety of the crews and use them merely as an example as they probably are the largest group.
I suppose the positive side is that at least the UK is taking some action and it reflects what is happening in many other companies throughout the UK which require a CRO certificate prior to employ.
I suppose the positive side is that at least the UK is taking some action and it reflects what is happening in many other companies throughout the UK which require a CRO certificate prior to employ.
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If you have nothing to hide whats the problem
You should have seen the checks I have had to go through
But after all the checks a colleage of mine got convicted of a VERY serious offence, so it just shows it's a
waste of time...
Just shows if you have been caught in the past
You should have seen the checks I have had to go through
But after all the checks a colleage of mine got convicted of a VERY serious offence, so it just shows it's a
waste of time...Just shows if you have been caught in the past
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As far as I understood it, anyone who does not complete and receive a satisfactory disclosure will have their pass removed by the BAA and will be dismissed.
The joke is foreign nationals working at the airport will get their disclosure back with "no record found" apparently. They show this to the BAA, who say "fine, carry on with your work". But someone who once got caught stealing a hot cross bun from the bakers when they were 16 could lose their job.
Only in the good old UK. There will become a time when the only people left working are coloured female lesbian single mothers with criminal records who have a current claim for ayslum being processed (no offence meant to any of those particular groups).
The joke is foreign nationals working at the airport will get their disclosure back with "no record found" apparently. They show this to the BAA, who say "fine, carry on with your work". But someone who once got caught stealing a hot cross bun from the bakers when they were 16 could lose their job.
Only in the good old UK. There will become a time when the only people left working are coloured female lesbian single mothers with criminal records who have a current claim for ayslum being processed (no offence meant to any of those particular groups).
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so timzta et al... you happy with the likes of Neil Roberston having full priveleges, on the basis that his foreign counterparts aren't so easily discovered, so why pick on him?
This is the same as everyone moaning about being searched, because they themselves (but not security) know they are genuine aircrew.
This is the same as everyone moaning about being searched, because they themselves (but not security) know they are genuine aircrew.
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paulo
Not quite. Security do not search you to find out if you are genuine aircrew. Your ID badge (issued by them) proves this. They search genuine aircrew to prevent them taking offensive nailclippers and guns airside, just in case they were planning to take control of the aircraft by force(!) Now that is the reason aircrew moan about being searched.....the futility of it.
PP
This is the same as everyone moaning about being searched, because they themselves (but not security) know they are genuine aircrew.
PP
mostly harmless
Devil's Advocate (so a lawyer, huh),
'Questions that come to mind include:
...
Does my period as a piano player in a Far East whorehouse count as criminal behaviour ?'
That depends on how badly you play.
'Questions that come to mind include:
...
Does my period as a piano player in a Far East whorehouse count as criminal behaviour ?'
That depends on how badly you play.
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Basic Disclosures are covered by the Rehab of Offenders act.
Meaning you will pass a Basic Disclosure with flying colours, as long as the rehab act covers it... and that even means serious crimes.
For example, if you comitted a major offence say 10 years ago, and was given a year in prison for it, today, you would pass the basic disclosure (correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't checked in detail as I have no need to!!!)
However, I didn't think the Basic Disclosure was available yet, as they only recently issued the consultation paper.
As for enhanced disclosures, these are only relevent to certain professions involving children as I believe - and as such most employers cannot request them.
Meaning you will pass a Basic Disclosure with flying colours, as long as the rehab act covers it... and that even means serious crimes.
For example, if you comitted a major offence say 10 years ago, and was given a year in prison for it, today, you would pass the basic disclosure (correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't checked in detail as I have no need to!!!)
However, I didn't think the Basic Disclosure was available yet, as they only recently issued the consultation paper.
As for enhanced disclosures, these are only relevent to certain professions involving children as I believe - and as such most employers cannot request them.
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Pilot Pete - They check that IDs look sufficiently like real ones, that's all.
I doubt there is a some policy to target genuine aircrew, no more than targetting any other genuine airport worker.
On the few times I've been airside, I've been very reassured to see that my pass / being a guest of NATS / etc etc didn't get me any special favours.
I doubt there is a some policy to target genuine aircrew, no more than targetting any other genuine airport worker.
On the few times I've been airside, I've been very reassured to see that my pass / being a guest of NATS / etc etc didn't get me any special favours.
Last edited by paulo; 4th Sep 2003 at 02:52.
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No Paulo
I think you will find that they are supposed to be checking that your ID is REAL and your identity thus proved. If you are saying that airside IDs can be faked then that is another issue.
If they are not satisfied that someone is
then they should not be letting them pass. They search 'genuine aircrew' because they are told to, again, not their fault and I am sure many of them see the futility in that too.
It's not about getting 'special favours', it's about security. My point was merely to express my opinion regarding this statement by you
Perhaps on reflection you may realise that you are implying that security don't know if we are real aircrew. If that is the case then the whole system is failing and therefore COMPLETELY futile! We have IDs with pictures, that swipe etc to PROVE who we are to security.
PP
I think you will find that they are supposed to be checking that your ID is REAL and your identity thus proved. If you are saying that airside IDs can be faked then that is another issue.
If they are not satisfied that someone is
genuine aircrew
It's not about getting 'special favours', it's about security. My point was merely to express my opinion regarding this statement by you
This is the same as everyone moaning about being searched, because they themselves (but not security) know they are genuine aircrew.
PP
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PP,
Thanks for a reasoned response - unusual in these parts.
Banknotes can be faked, so pretty much anything else can be - if you follow my sentiment. So yes, what I am saying is that ID check is one of a number of gateing factors. None are watertight (e.g. for pax, only 1 in x is body searched) but that does not mean they are mutually exclusive. It's not binary - less than 100% useful doesn't mean 0% useful.
So, you search 1 in x knowing you didn't check them all, you check every ID, but you know some (small number) could be fake, etc etc. Combine a variety of checks and their respective odds and the chances of a rogue getting through kitted up is reduced to long odds (although not zero).
If on the other hand you say - all IDs must be real, so we'll skip ID holders... all passengers who are old ladies in wheelchairs... we'll skip those too... now you start to open up the odds.
Basically the more stereotypes (ID holders, old people, children, the disabled) are seen as officially "good" the more these identities become obvious disguises.
I hope some of this makes sense - my security knowledge isn't from aviation, but it's just applying basic principals. Find the vulnerabilities as if you were the attacker.
Thanks for a reasoned response - unusual in these parts.
Banknotes can be faked, so pretty much anything else can be - if you follow my sentiment. So yes, what I am saying is that ID check is one of a number of gateing factors. None are watertight (e.g. for pax, only 1 in x is body searched) but that does not mean they are mutually exclusive. It's not binary - less than 100% useful doesn't mean 0% useful.
So, you search 1 in x knowing you didn't check them all, you check every ID, but you know some (small number) could be fake, etc etc. Combine a variety of checks and their respective odds and the chances of a rogue getting through kitted up is reduced to long odds (although not zero).
If on the other hand you say - all IDs must be real, so we'll skip ID holders... all passengers who are old ladies in wheelchairs... we'll skip those too... now you start to open up the odds.
Basically the more stereotypes (ID holders, old people, children, the disabled) are seen as officially "good" the more these identities become obvious disguises.
I hope some of this makes sense - my security knowledge isn't from aviation, but it's just applying basic principals. Find the vulnerabilities as if you were the attacker.
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It's just the godawful futility and em******ment factor that gets people's backs up.
Passengers have their tweezers confiscated and are sold large, glass bottles of duty free on the aircraft.
We take away their metal cutlery, yet a biro will do as much damage.
Cabin crew have their ice tongs and keys taken from them at security, and get them returned once they are on the aircraft.
Pilots get get their compasses taken from them, yet are allowed past security and onto the flightdeck of that aircraft. Where, I might add, resides a large crash-axe or two. Oh, and the controls.
And now we have a criminal background check which will only serve to relieve a couple of people of their jobs because of an incident in their (perhaps long ago) past, and does not affect the not inconsiderable number of non-national aircrew working in this country. I mean, shagging your sister makes you a national security risk ?! (At this point I mumble some disclaimer).
As for IDs... in the UK they are all swiped into a magnetic card reader. The reader compares the details stored on the strip with the entry in the security computer. I suppose it is feasible that someone could get hold of a valid ID, copy it, and put their own photo on it. If they swipe Blogg's ID and copy it, they will then have to dispose of Bloggs and turn up for his/her flight. They then run the risk of being identified by the rest of the crew as bogus.
Assuming they get through all of this, removing the guy's ETOPS compass kit isn't going to help much really.....neither is that background criminal check.
Passengers have their tweezers confiscated and are sold large, glass bottles of duty free on the aircraft.
We take away their metal cutlery, yet a biro will do as much damage.
Cabin crew have their ice tongs and keys taken from them at security, and get them returned once they are on the aircraft.
Pilots get get their compasses taken from them, yet are allowed past security and onto the flightdeck of that aircraft. Where, I might add, resides a large crash-axe or two. Oh, and the controls.
And now we have a criminal background check which will only serve to relieve a couple of people of their jobs because of an incident in their (perhaps long ago) past, and does not affect the not inconsiderable number of non-national aircrew working in this country. I mean, shagging your sister makes you a national security risk ?! (At this point I mumble some disclaimer).
As for IDs... in the UK they are all swiped into a magnetic card reader. The reader compares the details stored on the strip with the entry in the security computer. I suppose it is feasible that someone could get hold of a valid ID, copy it, and put their own photo on it. If they swipe Blogg's ID and copy it, they will then have to dispose of Bloggs and turn up for his/her flight. They then run the risk of being identified by the rest of the crew as bogus.
Assuming they get through all of this, removing the guy's ETOPS compass kit isn't going to help much really.....neither is that background criminal check.
There are further problems with these checks. They rely on information held on the police national computer, unfortunately some of the info is not up to date so if you were convicted of assault last week and it hasn't been input yet, so you get your pass.
Some people with common names get offences atributed to them they never did, a example of this occured in a town I worked in a few years ago, a woman was convicted of shplifting and assault on a police officer - she lived in Kings Terrace, another woman living in Kings Road with the same name applied for a job in the local Police station a few months later and was turned down as she failed to disclose her criminal record!
Also I understand that some older convictions were held on manual systems and were never entered in the PNC! so if you mugged an old granny , or dealt a little smack in the 60's it may not show up!
Some people with common names get offences atributed to them they never did, a example of this occured in a town I worked in a few years ago, a woman was convicted of shplifting and assault on a police officer - she lived in Kings Terrace, another woman living in Kings Road with the same name applied for a job in the local Police station a few months later and was turned down as she failed to disclose her criminal record!
Also I understand that some older convictions were held on manual systems and were never entered in the PNC! so if you mugged an old granny , or dealt a little smack in the 60's it may not show up!
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Paulo
I see what you are saying, and do agree that ID cards can be faked, just like any other 'official' document that's ever been known to man! But El D has made the point that the rest of the crew are unlikely to be taken in by an individual who they have never met and who behaves suspiciously.
My point still remains though; security check every ID of persons going airside. Why do they check that ID? To ascertain if the person carrying it has authority to be airside. If they cannot be confident that an individual is who they claim to be then that individual should be refused entry and the appropriate authorities requested to attend. If they are, then there is no need to search them (when it comes to aircrew) because they now have access to the aircraft by virtue of their job and the authority issued to them. If they are intent on causing damage by crashing the aeroplane, removing a nailfile at the security desk does nothing to prevent this. Searching them to see if they are carrying an explosive device would therefore be futile too as they would not need to risk being caught carrying one................
So I cannot see a valid reason for searching aircrew, unless you suspect that terrorists have infiltrated an airlines pilot workforce........and if that's the case the security has already been breached.
regards
PP
I see what you are saying, and do agree that ID cards can be faked, just like any other 'official' document that's ever been known to man! But El D has made the point that the rest of the crew are unlikely to be taken in by an individual who they have never met and who behaves suspiciously.
My point still remains though; security check every ID of persons going airside. Why do they check that ID? To ascertain if the person carrying it has authority to be airside. If they cannot be confident that an individual is who they claim to be then that individual should be refused entry and the appropriate authorities requested to attend. If they are, then there is no need to search them (when it comes to aircrew) because they now have access to the aircraft by virtue of their job and the authority issued to them. If they are intent on causing damage by crashing the aeroplane, removing a nailfile at the security desk does nothing to prevent this. Searching them to see if they are carrying an explosive device would therefore be futile too as they would not need to risk being caught carrying one................
So I cannot see a valid reason for searching aircrew, unless you suspect that terrorists have infiltrated an airlines pilot workforce........and if that's the case the security has already been breached.
regards
PP
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Not that I have any but...
I was once told that criminal convictions become "spent" after a certain defined period depending on the nature of the crime. I thought that once a conviction became spent it was a) not legal for an employer to ask about it and b) nor was it necessary for a person to declare it when asked.
Perhaps things are different now.
I was once told that criminal convictions become "spent" after a certain defined period depending on the nature of the crime. I thought that once a conviction became spent it was a) not legal for an employer to ask about it and b) nor was it necessary for a person to declare it when asked.
Perhaps things are different now.
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Suggest you lot take this situation with a bit more Adult attitude. Have any of you been shot at, bombed or hounded by nasty folks with guns ?. I have so apply some thought to the way you apply your thoughts in print. Otherwise your are a threat !. due to your disregard for security. Who pays your salary, the SLC (Self Loading Cargo) on yr airplane, that's if have naything to do with this business in the first place.