Criminal Records Check - time to come clean, or what ?
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PP,
This is still good stuff (let's ignore the tabloid style flak in the intevening posts).
In most systems, the basic identifier is treated as good. My guess on this is that, for airside, it's not longer treated as 'good enough'. So, yes, the ID has some clout (otherwise, yes, it's worthless), but it's no longer the definitive "you are kosher".
Think of it another way: If the ID is treated as cast iron, then the ID is the cast iron way through the system. Too easy a point of focus for the attacker - a single point of vulnerability.
As for the "crew" idea, yes it's harder to pull off, so I'd shape my security policy to cover that. And by that I don't mean that if the whole attack crew turns up with IDs together, I'd wave every single group through regardless. I might check single "crew" more often than groups, but definitely would not have a policy of "if you turn up like this, there'll be a guaranteed red carpet".
Keep 'em guessing.
But I do share your dismay. On the day I of my gft, the license was badge of minor-league trust. Jumpseats a gogo. The day after I earnt it, I watched the towers fall. The license, for what it was meant for, is still as valid. Otherwise it's a turd coloured piece of vinyl with "SECURITY RISK" written in strangely visible invisible ink.
This is still good stuff (let's ignore the tabloid style flak in the intevening posts).
In most systems, the basic identifier is treated as good. My guess on this is that, for airside, it's not longer treated as 'good enough'. So, yes, the ID has some clout (otherwise, yes, it's worthless), but it's no longer the definitive "you are kosher".
Think of it another way: If the ID is treated as cast iron, then the ID is the cast iron way through the system. Too easy a point of focus for the attacker - a single point of vulnerability.
As for the "crew" idea, yes it's harder to pull off, so I'd shape my security policy to cover that. And by that I don't mean that if the whole attack crew turns up with IDs together, I'd wave every single group through regardless. I might check single "crew" more often than groups, but definitely would not have a policy of "if you turn up like this, there'll be a guaranteed red carpet".
Keep 'em guessing.
But I do share your dismay. On the day I of my gft, the license was badge of minor-league trust. Jumpseats a gogo. The day after I earnt it, I watched the towers fall. The license, for what it was meant for, is still as valid. Otherwise it's a turd coloured piece of vinyl with "SECURITY RISK" written in strangely visible invisible ink.
Last edited by paulo; 6th Sep 2003 at 20:18.
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> Think of it another way: If the ID is treated as cast iron, then
> the ID is the cast iron way through the system. Too easy a
> point of focus for the attacker - a single point of vulnerability.
I once knew someone who boasted he could get into sporting events free. He told us that the previous weekend he had made up a fake press pass and that it had got him into the pit lane of that weekends F1 event. We didn't believe him until he produced the photos of him with his arms round the waist of several famous motor racing drivers and their girl friends in the pit lane itself. He also had lunch in one teams hospitality tent.
> the ID is the cast iron way through the system. Too easy a
> point of focus for the attacker - a single point of vulnerability.
I once knew someone who boasted he could get into sporting events free. He told us that the previous weekend he had made up a fake press pass and that it had got him into the pit lane of that weekends F1 event. We didn't believe him until he produced the photos of him with his arms round the waist of several famous motor racing drivers and their girl friends in the pit lane itself. He also had lunch in one teams hospitality tent.
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I couldn't agree more with the issue of faking IDs and if we were in a pub talking about this I think we would have moved much further on in the debate and been having considerably more fun to boot!
I mentioned in another post that faking IDs is another issue, although obviously closely related, but in the realms of the debate we were having. They are not searching aircrew to assertain if they are genuine or not, they are searching them to remove 'offensive' sharp objects which could be used as weapons, so in the debate I still stand by my statement that the searching aspect is futile for aircrew. If the ID card is not enough to prove identity then there is another weakness in the system that needs addressing, but searching is not the solution to that problem. Remember they only search you once you have gone through the 'ID' check and the metal detector, so one can only assume that the inspector of the ID card is satisfied with the holders' identity. The searchers are doing a different job. All the different jobs put together should ensure that the whoile security objective has been met as well as is possible.
Well, I'm off to be frisked now...................
PP
I mentioned in another post that faking IDs is another issue, although obviously closely related, but in the realms of the debate we were having. They are not searching aircrew to assertain if they are genuine or not, they are searching them to remove 'offensive' sharp objects which could be used as weapons, so in the debate I still stand by my statement that the searching aspect is futile for aircrew. If the ID card is not enough to prove identity then there is another weakness in the system that needs addressing, but searching is not the solution to that problem. Remember they only search you once you have gone through the 'ID' check and the metal detector, so one can only assume that the inspector of the ID card is satisfied with the holders' identity. The searchers are doing a different job. All the different jobs put together should ensure that the whoile security objective has been met as well as is possible.
Well, I'm off to be frisked now...................
PP
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I think its all a case of make the poor man poorer if you like. It is easier for the security people/government to up the level of security regarding people who are 99.99% likely to be kosher. Namely those of thus who have had to supply umpteen references and checks on the references to get our airside pass.
It is far harder to infiltrate terrorist groupes and stop another event like 9/11, so it is the above that is done, in order to give the impression that security levels have been raised. Can anyone in the police/MI5/MI6/BAA honestly say that they are going to prevent a terrorist attack on aviation as a result of these CRCs?
Also I cannot believe a terrorist would try to get through security. The faking a pass issue etc is fraught with dangers. I work at a London airport, and several of my colleagues, like myself, are ex military. If we were a terror cell we are all of the opinion we would not be going through security as our means of access airside.
But I have nothing to hide, my CRC was posted last week, I should get the reply soon. If it makes someone somewhere feel safer, then I dont mind taking 5 mins to fill in the form.
It is far harder to infiltrate terrorist groupes and stop another event like 9/11, so it is the above that is done, in order to give the impression that security levels have been raised. Can anyone in the police/MI5/MI6/BAA honestly say that they are going to prevent a terrorist attack on aviation as a result of these CRCs?
Also I cannot believe a terrorist would try to get through security. The faking a pass issue etc is fraught with dangers. I work at a London airport, and several of my colleagues, like myself, are ex military. If we were a terror cell we are all of the opinion we would not be going through security as our means of access airside.
But I have nothing to hide, my CRC was posted last week, I should get the reply soon. If it makes someone somewhere feel safer, then I dont mind taking 5 mins to fill in the form.
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cwatters:
You are correct about some convictions becoming spent (certainly in the UK). The legislation that covers it is the "Rehabilitation of Offenders Act"
The time before a conviction becomes spent depends on the sentence passed. An absolute discharge becomes spent before a fine, and a fine is spent before a custodial sentence. Certain convictions never become spent ( from memory any custodial sentence over 2.5 years).
Certain jobs are excempt from this, primarily those involving working with children and other vulnerable groups. In this case the job application will clearly state that it is exempt from the rehabilitation of offenders legislation.
If the job is not exempt, and your conviction is deemed to be spent there is absolutely no requirement to admit it to any potential employer.
The current basic disclosure from Disclosure Scotland will only list unspent convictions.
You are correct about some convictions becoming spent (certainly in the UK). The legislation that covers it is the "Rehabilitation of Offenders Act"
The time before a conviction becomes spent depends on the sentence passed. An absolute discharge becomes spent before a fine, and a fine is spent before a custodial sentence. Certain convictions never become spent ( from memory any custodial sentence over 2.5 years).
Certain jobs are excempt from this, primarily those involving working with children and other vulnerable groups. In this case the job application will clearly state that it is exempt from the rehabilitation of offenders legislation.
If the job is not exempt, and your conviction is deemed to be spent there is absolutely no requirement to admit it to any potential employer.
The current basic disclosure from Disclosure Scotland will only list unspent convictions.
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Can anyone answer a question for me?
If you were 16 and arrested for criminal damage even thiugh you didn't do anything and the casa was dropped, no charges no caution, does that come back as a criminal record?? All this disclosure scotland is confusing...
If you were 16 and arrested for criminal damage even thiugh you didn't do anything and the casa was dropped, no charges no caution, does that come back as a criminal record?? All this disclosure scotland is confusing...
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So this means - If someone for example bought a stolen car stereo when he was say 18 or I dont know bought a knocked off Video player and was nicked for it. Say now he has been a Captain in the UK for an airline for 10 years plus he could face the sack?
Seems to me they need to get a decent set of rules in place!
Seems to me they need to get a decent set of rules in place!
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not sure about the law where u are, but i know here in australia, and i assume it should be the same for where you are, if you are under 18, you will not have a criminal record as you are juvenile, and the slate is wiped clean when you turn 18 so to speak, unless it was something hard like murder, haha, but for criminal damage (and i assume it wasnt anything too bad), you should be right. i can almost defenitley say that you will have no record of this crime at all if there were no charges and you were 16,a nd the crime was nothing too serious. so i think you wont have to worry bout it!
good luck!
KMH
good luck!
KMH
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VH
hehe I am ok cos it aint me I was on about lol
I am a good boy
We have the same system in the UK I think if your under 18 its not a prob. 18 and over is a different story - I used that story above as an example because it seems silly that I am sure there are indeed the odd few out there who may have been a bit silly when they were younger. For example a Skipper for a major UK Airline who is 45 stole something from a car say when he was 19 and was convicted. He then matured and never did anything since - Would it be right to fire him and ruin his career for something he did 25+ years ago? I mean he is hardly a threat to National Security is he?
hehe I am ok cos it aint me I was on about lol
I am a good boy We have the same system in the UK I think if your under 18 its not a prob. 18 and over is a different story - I used that story above as an example because it seems silly that I am sure there are indeed the odd few out there who may have been a bit silly when they were younger. For example a Skipper for a major UK Airline who is 45 stole something from a car say when he was 19 and was convicted. He then matured and never did anything since - Would it be right to fire him and ruin his career for something he did 25+ years ago? I mean he is hardly a threat to National Security is he?
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shamen,
haha, yeah im sure u r a good boy! haha!
but i was just saying that for skychicks sake, perhaps she wasnt a good girl hey!? haha
i like it!
but yeh, i see what youre saying. no it wouldnt be fair to ruin a pilots career, or any one for that matter, because something they did so so many years ago!
KMH
haha, yeah im sure u r a good boy! haha!
but i was just saying that for skychicks sake, perhaps she wasnt a good girl hey!? haha
i like it!but yeh, i see what youre saying. no it wouldnt be fair to ruin a pilots career, or any one for that matter, because something they did so so many years ago!
KMH
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difficult times
Well this is a difficult time for me because being offered a great job is one thing but now I realise that in the last five years I have moved several times, travelled back and forth to Italy and other places etc. I just filled in my disclosure form and there wasn't enough room for all my addresses only 2. I think I missed one out it was difficult and I had to do it there.
When I was 16 I was playing truant from school and met a lad I fancied
he asked me to go with him somwhere and has it was raining we sat in an old car which I thought was out of use anyway this lad started to do a bit of damage and anyway we ended being arrested me 16 and scared and I no longer fancied this pyscho lad..
I'm now 25 and officialy a saint but I still feel paranoid about this whole check thing its a nightmare. I live in Hounslow, West London and my friend went to school with the recent British Suicide bomber he too was from Hounslow, he was the most kindest person, very quiet, very shy and clever never would hurt a fly. Anyway he worked at the airport but for some strange reason no one would ever assume he would be a fanatical and look what happened. What i'm trying to say that if your going to do something you will do it regardless of these stupid checks and many terrorist won't have a past...
When I was 16 I was playing truant from school and met a lad I fancied
he asked me to go with him somwhere and has it was raining we sat in an old car which I thought was out of use anyway this lad started to do a bit of damage and anyway we ended being arrested me 16 and scared and I no longer fancied this pyscho lad.. I'm now 25 and officialy a saint but I still feel paranoid about this whole check thing its a nightmare. I live in Hounslow, West London and my friend went to school with the recent British Suicide bomber he too was from Hounslow, he was the most kindest person, very quiet, very shy and clever never would hurt a fly. Anyway he worked at the airport but for some strange reason no one would ever assume he would be a fanatical and look what happened. What i'm trying to say that if your going to do something you will do it regardless of these stupid checks and many terrorist won't have a past...
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My criminal records check (CRC) took 7 weeks to come back from disclosure scotland.
Which is fine, except that if it's more than 6 weeks old then the airport can't use it for ID issue. The ID bloke at the airport reckons that the CRC's take up to 10 weeks to be issued.
My company has to pay for another CRC at £17 a go, and I'm hoping this takes another 7 weeks, as the one after that will, and the one after until my pass expires and I can have a few weeks or months off.
Which is fine, except that if it's more than 6 weeks old then the airport can't use it for ID issue. The ID bloke at the airport reckons that the CRC's take up to 10 weeks to be issued.
My company has to pay for another CRC at £17 a go, and I'm hoping this takes another 7 weeks, as the one after that will, and the one after until my pass expires and I can have a few weeks or months off.
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Skychick
The disclosure thing only checks criminal records. If there was No further Action then you wont have one, no criminal record would have been created.
You say the case was 'dropped' I presume you mean that you did not recieve a caution?
Records of junvinile cautions are not kept for ever, as I recall no more than a couple of years after someone becomes an adult, but in any event having been cautioned does not from what I gather bar you from working at an airport.
The disclosure thing only checks criminal records. If there was No further Action then you wont have one, no criminal record would have been created.
You say the case was 'dropped' I presume you mean that you did not recieve a caution?
Records of junvinile cautions are not kept for ever, as I recall no more than a couple of years after someone becomes an adult, but in any event having been cautioned does not from what I gather bar you from working at an airport.
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Does this mean that even High ranking managers within the airports have to have one.
Or are some airports in the uk excempt. ?
Seems one airport has an ex copper with a dodgey past.
They liked him that much they put him in charge of Security.
Or are some airports in the uk excempt. ?
Seems one airport has an ex copper with a dodgey past.
They liked him that much they put him in charge of Security.
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Interesting--
All of the 9/11 terriorist could pass a criminal background check, and they all could go thru security checks done by airline pre-screening (computer background checks at the counter) So, with this in mind, why does the govt want another intrusion into your life?
All of the 9/11 terriorist could pass a criminal background check, and they all could go thru security checks done by airline pre-screening (computer background checks at the counter) So, with this in mind, why does the govt want another intrusion into your life?
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All of the 9/11 terriorist could pass a criminal background check, and they all could go thru security checks done by airline pre-screening (computer background checks at the counter) So, with this in mind, why does the govt want another intrusion into your life?
because that way thewy can say "look, you see we ARE doing something about aviation security".
remember, although you can check the pilot for weapons as he/she goes through the gate, he/she can still hijack the aeroplane without one!
