PIA Manchester Scare.

[MAN777]

PIA approach

I take it that due to the lack of response on the thread from the people who know the facts (MAN ATC) this incident is being investigated, or not. Doesnt appear to have hit the MEN (MANCHESTER EVENING NEWS) yet which is very unusual, they normally have a story if they see a rabbit crap on the runway !

[lumbalund]

The PIA 747 landed after obtaining landing clearance.End of story.

[robmac]

Lumbalund

You didn't happen to be flying it did you.

Come on now don't be shy.

[BigHitDH]

I sometimes head down to MAN to watch aircraft coming in and out, and I must admit, those PIA guys are fun to watch.

I remember once standing on the end of 06L and watching a PIA 747 take off. I won't repeat what I said when I saw one ship take a very long run down the runway, wheels leaving the ground after it had gone well past the threshold markings. I even saw the arrestor bed reflected in his belly. It's the closest I've ever come to dropping the camera and running...

[lumbalund]

No robmac ,I was not on that flight.

[Pontious]

I have a serious issue with PIA's safety levels.

I have personally seen...
1) A PIA 747 overrun the runway at Islamabad when they aborted a take off- The damage to the gear and melted and fused brakes was substantial enough for the aircraft to be considered a write off. The engineers had to change all the hydraulic lines to the brakes, the brake units as well as the wheels so that the aircraft could be moved.

2) The remains of a PIA A300 that landed in the undershoot at DXB taking out most of the APP lighting.

3) 2 PIA 747's landing considerably off centreline at MAN.

4) A PIA 747 turned back to take up the hold over the BEL VOR by Scottish ATCC because they tried to enter the NATS without an Oceanic clearance. They even tried to bluff and browbeat the Controller concerned. He did a sterling job and I wonder how close the guy was to scrambling a couple of Interceptors.

5) I also heard a PIA flight descending into Germany that busted flight levels TWICE and turned onto wrong headings TWICE.

The worrying aspect is that ALL these incidents have taken place in the last 18 months, I have witnessed,or actually heard the R/T conversations whilst airborne myself and I don't fly that often.

[Civil Servant]

lumbalund,

If the aircraft WAS cleared to land, and the controller says" go around" then the previously granted landing clearance is cancelled.

THAT'S "end of story"

[JW411]

I think this thread has got completely out of hand. This is supposed to be a professional pilots rumour network and here we have a bunch of plane spotters, a student, a 14-year old kid who has made 350 postings in just as many minutes and someone who claims to be the worst air traffic controller in history absolutely tearing apart an international airline.

Not one of them has the faintest idea of what is required to operate a 747 classic to its optimum. For example, do any of them realise that under Performance A rules aircraft are only required to miss obstacles by 35 feet in the event of the loss of the critical engine at V1 (see my recent answer to Paper Tiger in Questions)?

Put simply, if you are stood at the end of the runway, do not expect to be missed by much more than 35 ft if a 747 or anything else for that matter, loses an engine at V1. That is why there are signs up telling you not to stand there!

I suspect that part of the trouble is that these aviation observers at Manchester have become so used to short-range aeroplanes that use very little runway that they get excited when a real bit of longhaul appears on their severely limited horizon.

A little knowledge is dangerous and could become slanderous.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Hey JW411,

You obviously haven't been to MAN for a long time, it's not uncommon to have plenty of wide bodied aircraft in and out. When I landed this morning there were 6 747's and at least as many A330 and 767's.

WRT 35 ft obstacle clearance, that would be with 2 engines operating on a 747, this guy appears to have felt that the one that passed over him was very low, but would have had all 4 engines otherwise we'd have heard about it on here. With all 4 engines operating I would suggest that it should have been somewhat higher, and wouldn't like to think of where it would have been with a double engine failure after V1.

Can't comment on the actual incident however, I wasn't there. I would suggest that it is very poor airmanship with a serviceable aeroplane to ignore a GA instruction.

[j17]

jw411

your qoute A little knowledge is a dangerous thing

I suggest you look at Manchesters movements to see how many wide bodied movements we have every day before you start making stupid statements as you did in your posting,

The above qoute says it all

[Point Seven]

Jw411


Nobody is talking about take off in a 747 Jurassic nor EFATO. For the most part, we're talking about final approach and go around. Or had that been lost on you? If you can't keep up, keep out.

You really are an aviation expert of the highest calibre. Not.

P7

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

It`s funny that all events involving take off and landing seem to involve one airline even though there are numerous operators flying long sectors ie Malasia, Seattle which never attract any attention and yet certain operators to New York and destinations east of Manchester have a great problem and I will leave you to fill the gaps in.
No I`m not a pilot but I have learned enough of friends who are pilots over a number of years to know that some operators look a bit "dodgy or suspect" to call it what you like.
I remember BA when they used to operate to Islamabad direct from Manchester they where low on climb out but never to put the public at risk and heard many a time asking for a runway change even if it if it caused a delay to get the optimum take off path/climb out due to winds being not ideal at lower levels

Golf-India Bravo

[mutt]

Johnny F@rt Pants

WRT 35 ft obstacle clearance, that would be with 2 engines operating on a 747
Not sure where you got that idea from, buts it wrong. ALL AFM takeoff data is based on a single engine failure. We only plan for double engine failures when conducting 3 engine ferries under the applicable appendix.

Mutt.

[lumbalund]

Jw411 I agree with you,it has gotten out of hand but you have to realise that its not about finding out what happened,Its about PIA bashing.I guess people get uneasy when they are in their ATP,s or EMB145,s and see a 747 which is flown by pilots from the "third world" who have not passed the umpteen exams to get a JAA licence as they have.
It does not matter to them that the three guys in the cockpit have on average between 35000 to40000 hrs between them,Flown in and out of every airfield that any one in Manchester can name and then some. Manchester ATC have not upto now filed a violation so they landed after obtaining landing clearance.

[BOEINGBOY1]

No, but it does matter when they deliberately ignore an ATC instruction!
(if indeed this happened as first reported)

[Jack Point]

Lumba,
cc jw

Fyi i have WITNESSED two incidents with pia, i fly jets, i have 12000hrs, and by coincidence do know all about the third world and its licencing and checking techniques. i have 8000hrs plus in that world, and a third world licence with an amusing little provenance but i wont slander an authority specifically on a public forum.I have also passed all the uk exams as well so i dont have that particlular chip as you seem to do, but yes it is an exclusive licence and it appears you havent got one.In general
lets just say putting the 737 on my third world licence would involve comapatively less time and effort than uk, and can and has been achieved by some i have met who , when you peel back the layers have only ever purchased their qualifications. icao agrrements dictate that we observe various national qualifications world wide but cannot dictate that we hold them in equal proffessional esteem should their provenance be suspect.

I do however avoid certain carriers where i know personnally some of the people and their flying history in these parts of the world, and from what i've SEEN another has has just joined the list.

So i am not a spotter, dont fly an atp, and i do have a database from which to make my judgements, so as they say "GET BACK IN YER BOX SONNY"

The clash between national cultural behaviours and cockpit culture has caused many wide body accidents, look it up. Mix in the average standards of the , shall we say integrety challenged parts of the world and bingo , one widebody sitting in the carpark of ST. Anthonys in woodhouse park.

Sometimes the nievete on this board astounds me. The case of the Guvnors original defending clique being a case in point

[Rananim]

I make no excuses for the PIA crew(if indeed they did act recklessly)but it is always the pilot who decides whether to continue or abort an "unstable" approach.ATC can and should offer advice/concern like "ARE YOU STILL ABLE FOR APPROACH?" OR "YOUR GEAR AINT DOWN" but the pilot makes the decision.
US Controllers are too busy to do the pilots job as well.They only give the go-around command when the problem is ATC based like a blocked runway.Anything else,I guess they figure that the pilot is paid enough to make that sort of decision for himself/herself.

[Pontious]

JW411

So you know all about operating Jurassic 747's to their optimum performance do you? Would you care to enlighten PIA on the basics of All Engine Operating Net Climb Gradients, 1st Segment and 2nd Segment Climb requirements, of Net and Gross Performance and exactly what a bloody Screen Height IS when operating out of,what is obviously in your opinion, a backwater,regional-cum-STOLport, type of airport like MAN, before the "Rank Amateurs" flatten Heald Green or Wilmslow?
If an ATCO tells me to abort a take-off (prior to V1,hopefully) or go around I will instinctively either be chucking out the anchors or climbing like a homesick angel.

PIA's Nav and Performance Department may appreciate a bit of your vastly superior knowledge, however your pomposity is not welcome here. Just remember who reads this board.
Have you ever considered the hours those "Spotters" put in at Manchester? They can easily tell a normal,optimum performanced, De-Rated or Flex-Temped departure that they witness a hundred times a day from a close call or near disaster. Your high level of condescending arrogance is an embarassment.
Chin! Chin!

[newswatcher]

L10 incident - Kos

Typically mischievous response from 411A! IMHO absolutely nothing to do with crew ignoring ATC commands!

L10 incident ocurred way back in July '98.

Heavy landing resulted in substantial skin damage in the area of the rear pressure bulkhead and abrasion of the retractable tail skid.

A stand-by crew was operating to full extent of their hours. Captain took on aircraft reported as demonstrating “false” stick shaker stall warning when speed well above stall point, during late stages of approach. Not advised that this “fault” would have any adverse effect on handling characteristics.

During approach, crew experienced at least 4 separate and “false” stick shaker warnings whilst below 900 feet in final stages.

During last few seconds of approach, all crew noticed a sudden loss of altitude, and Captain applied increase in pitch.

Bulletin draws attention to the fact that although the runway slopes upward from the touchdown end with an average slope of 0.51%, the airfield charts available to the crew actually showed the average slope for Runway 33 as 0.51% down. Since this was a night landing this could well have affected the crew’s perception of their position relative the runway.

Also, post-incident analysis showed that the FCES computer sensed a “no slat” condition, even when slats correctly deployed. This was cause of the erroneous stick shaker warnings.

Bulletin concludes a combination of factors resulted in a high workload for the crew at a time of day when they were likely to be experiencing a reduced level of alertness arising from their scheduling and work cycle.

However, no mention whatsoever of pilot error in AAIB bulletin.

[411A]

Suspect many of the so-called 'experts' that watch from the far end of 06L in MAN have a few too many adult beverages at the local tavern thereby, thus are really unable to distinguish fact from fiction.

And, from newswatcher's narrative....the pilots were tired, so they pranged the aeroplane.

Not paying attention, tired or not. Must have been asleep in ground school as well, as flying a TriStar is not all that difficult....
if you know how...which clearly these guys didn't.