One on One with David Smith from Robinson
 

While at European Rotors Paul sat down and chatted with DavidSmithHeli and got the latest updates on the R88 as well as other projects. Have a watch of the video. Thing I love about chatting with David is there are not many other OEM CEOs that take the time to sit down and chat with the media. Ryan from MD is quite easy to approach - others well not really interested or able to get through to them so kudos for being so open for the media.

Great, now how about making the Safety Course affordable again? In 2020 I paid $700 for the R44, now its up to $1,800! DUDE!

I used to go every two years for my BFR. Been there 6 times. It was always a fun little vacation at helicopter camp,...oh well. :(

David Smith often comments and answers questions on this forum. I’m impressed by the calm factual responses to questions which are often at the other ends of those spectrums.

The price of the safety course has increased primarily due to increased labor cost over the last several years. We have fantastic instructors and it was important that we paid them higher rates for the flight time to ensure we keep the quality high.

Ultimately we cover our costs with the fees but don’t make anything off the course. It is still the best value training of any OEM anywhere. $1800 for 4 days of instructions and over 1 hr of flight time with world class instructors. Plus you get to visit SoCal and see our factory. It’s a great bargain!

I think you and I have different definitions of the word, "bargin".

No, its just you.
$450 per day inclusive of some air time? I paid more for a decent meal in California than that.

"Thank you sir, may I have another"?

Terrible misquote from Dickens.
Rather go eat some cake..

Could you kindly enlighten us as to other options that you know of that offer similar levels of training in addition to the additional opportunities that Robinson offer within this package at a better price point?

Yeah,...the same damn course from 2005 to 2020!

Robinson is like McDonald's. They used to offer a good value of a decent product for much less than everyone else. Now its slightly lower quality for a much higher cost.

,,.."but hey everyone else is still higher so you should be grateful". /s

In 2020 I got two and a half days of ground, a 1.1 in the R44 and my BFR endorsement for $750. In 2024 they axed the BFR endorsement and doubled the price to $1,500. If that's a "bargin" then it must also come with the deed to the Brooklyn Bridge. :ok:

Just in case you're curious, my BFR that year ended up costing about a grand,...and before you say that those two and a half days of ground are worth the extra $500 bones, remember, there's also four nights in a hotel attached to that course (but not included in the price) plus gas (I drove from NorCal) or airfair/rental car for a lot of other poor chopper jocks.

,...and don't forget, this course is often an insurance requirement for entry level helicopter jobs that pay live in your car wages!

A lot has changed since 2005, almost as much as changed since 2020.
One of the explanations was that Robinson doesn’t want to pay their Instructors “live in your car wages”.

Have you seen the price tags on their helicopters? That alone should keep their instructors out of their cars. No need to shove a poker up the ass of even lower time instructors/tour pilots just trying to meet ridiculous insurance requirements.

Times change yes, and Robinson just hasn't been the same since Frank died.

So buy another brand.

Why? I love the R22. Not its fault the company has become less pilot freindly.

Can Robinson please address 'chugging' & the recovery techniques once established before a mast bump occurs? Thanks in advance

I went in 2005 and it was a two day course, I can't see how it needs to be four days. Seems expensive now.

Mast rock and mast bumping are not related

It is an accurate quote from Animal House however:ok:​​​​​​​

Comparing 2020 rates and 2025 rates is nonsensical; apparently that guy never heard of inflation. For a *real* comparison, the Bell 505 course I did a few months ago was $17.5k! Of course that's for a much more expensive helicopter and included 3 hours of flight time plus a bit of time in a fancy sim, but it was really only a 2-day course plus a flight or two on each of the next few days, and did not include a factory tour since it wasn't at the factory (dedicated training facility).

$1800 is dirt cheap for a helicopter course. If you're a helicopter owner or even renter, you can obviously afford that cost (it's the equivalent of renting a R44 for 3 hours). If you're a professional helicopter pilot, your employer would pay the cost.

$1,800 plus travel plus hotels etc is an lot to find for a new R22 CFI looking for work, and lots of employers in the USA expect you to have the RHC course done in order to apply for jobs

That's true, though not RHC's fault, but one of many reasons why being a commercial helicopter pilot is not so profitable usually.

I did the course in the UK a few years back. I can’t remember what it cost, but the 2 day event was mesmerisingly special with Tim Tucker doing the instructor flying. At today’s prices a course of that quality is still fantastic value and I look forward to the next one.

Sadly, everything costs rather more than it used to.

Going from $500 in 2005 to $750 in 2020 (15 years) is inflation. Going from $750 in 2020 to $1,500 in 2022 (2 years) is corporate greed,...not to mention another $300 in just another 3 years!

I was a renter for 16.5 years and $1800 was about have my yearly rental budget. Maybe you're rich enough that $1800 means nothing, but a lot of us Robby drivers aren't.

,...and I seriously doubt any pilot pays $17k out of pocket for that Bell school. Its an apples to oranges comparison to a course that was designed for pilots at the "burger flipper wages" end of the industry.

Plus, when the course is an insurance requirement just to get that burger flipper wage job, the employer is definitely not paying for it. You're as out of touch as the new guy who now runs Robinson.

The $1800 was for the R44 course.
The R22 course is listed as $1133.

If your budget is $1800 a year, in modern money, in these parts, thats about 4 or 5 hours of rental in a R44, and that isn't enough for currency and proficiency. Costs have more than doubled in 10 years. Probably safe to say that you wouldn't be the target market and it doesn't reflect any Robbie drivers I know. Helicopter flying is not value for money, and if you can't afford the hours or training it is probably better to consider fixed wing instead.

As a percentage of total spend to obtain a license, $1200-$1800 is barely scratching the surface.

It is not....but that's where it ends if it the chugging continues to increases!

You are entitled to your opinion, but having spent a lot of my career in the training industry and being intimately familiar with the 505 training program I can say that you are not correct about the cost and funding for training.

For what it is worth, I am the one you can thank for holding R22 spare part prices flat for almost my entire time at the company. I also made sure that when we doubled the life of the R66 parts last year we passed most of the financial benefit to the customer even though some of the new revisions cost more to make.

We have tried to be sensitive to the running costs of our aircraft which is the dominant driver of affordability. If biannual (or every 5 years!) training cost is dominating your flight expenses, you are not flying enough.

PS: take a look at our new R66 Transition course that directly compares to the $17k 505 course… we offer more flight time, more ground school and we do it in California! $7k! Best deal in town after the safety course 😉

https://www.robinsonheli.com/training/r66-transition-course

DavidSmithHeli - You will learn that Robbiee argues as a hobby. (Reminds me of a famous Monty Python sketch) The rest of us appreciate your input.

Do I get a discount for spotting the typo on the linked webpage?

What typo? Its abridged for display purposes by the forum.

The typo on the webpage, not the link...

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....16b793f10d.png

Lol,...I love how you all justify this course suddenly doubling in price by comparing it to courses that are being paid for by an employer, not an actual pilot.

To be frank (pun in there somewhere) after the second trip I found that the course didn't offer anything new to learn anyway. I just kept going because it was fun way to get my BFR.

,..but then (this being McRib season) I used to get at least half a dozen of those before it ended. Now (at their ridiculous price increase) I can only afford one. That's life I guess.

What's that quote I'm think of from an old Mel Brooks movie? Oh yeah,..."!!!! the poor". :ok:

Yes, $1,800 is for the 44. Just as $750 was also for the 44 back in 2020. I used to rent the 22, but would still get a BFR in the 44 just in case I found one of those (live in your car wage) tour jobs that come around each Summer.

My rental budget was about $4k a year (to rent the 22). So the increase to $1,800 would be (like I said) about half that. The rental price I was paying for the 22 went from about $180/hr in 2003 to $280/hr in 2019, then the school closed.

Today (when I fly once every six months with a babysitter because there's no place near me to rent anymore) its $350/hr for the 22.

Even when I have found places to rent (usually at least an hour and a half drive away) they require ridiculously expenses renters insurance now. So, I've basically been priced out of the self-fly-hire game.

It was fun while it lasted though.

I've attended at least three times. Torrance is not known for upscale hotel accommodations, avoid if possible the Ramada Inn across the street.

Robbiee, here's an idea. See the value in the course and pay their asking fee, or don't! No need to continue carrying on so much.

Never thought I'd see so much defense of corporate greed on the internet. First time for everything I guess.

Corporate greed? Sounds more like customer ignorance.
Be grateful that we have a senior member of their team taking time to speak to a broad community based on extensive experience and a deep understanding of the business. Yet we have one individual who does not represent the typical customer, making a fuss because they, individually, are cash-strapped and are completely disconnected from the state of the global economy.
Costs have not changed in isolation and it remains the best value and opportunity for pilots to train and fly rotorcraft.

For those of us that own and run businesses, it has been an interesting journey the last many years and costs aren't pushed onto customers because we'd like larger dividends, as nice as that would be. For the most part, thanks to global, and frequently US-lead, issues we are having to suck up more and more to ease client pain, which despite appearances, has a negative effect on the bottom line.

To be fair to Robbie, he does have a point

And he is entitled to it, but does the dead horse need to be flogged so long?
With respect, there is no shortage of points being made on internet forums.

Of the gripes about cost of operation or flying, if this is a material issue for you then you have bigger problems.
In the context of Robinson as a whole, and where they are heading, is this really what you want to talk about?

I don't think they offer such a thing, but it would be interesting to get a price for an equivalent 4 days course in Marseille/Marignane with one hour in an EC120 - a bit more than 1,300 euros I suspect :}

Customer ignorance?!

Again,...it took 15 years to go up just $250 bucks, then in less than 5 years, it more than doubled! The course is $1,000 bucks more now than it was in 2021!

,...but I suppose your defense now will be, they were undercharging us for 15 years and now its up to "fair market value".

I've been to this course 6 times. It ain't worth $1,800 bucks!,...even without the additional $500 minimum for a hotel.

,..and you want to beat a dead horse, let's head on over to the Settling With Power megathread. This one's barely 2 pages, lol.