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The trouble is that you can't see the ground, you can only see a few lights (in a poorly lit area) and in order to correctly maintain the aircraft attitude with no AI, you need a visual horizon.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 11167592)
The trouble is that you can't see the ground, you can only see a few lights (in a poorly lit area) and in order to correctly maintain the aircraft attitude with no AI, you need a visual horizon.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 11167562)
Does anything in FAA land or the RFM specify the need for an artificial horizon or attitude indicator to be fitted for night flight in a Robbie?
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No AI, limited experience and a night flight over poorly lit terrain that ends in a high speed CFIT - that has disorientation and LOC written all over it but until there is a full investigation we won't know if there were medical issues with the pilot or any catastrophic failure of the aircraft.
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Don't have the FAA regs in hand, but here in Canada aircraft are required in night to have an AH & DG.
Theoretically that should be enough to fly in black holes or inadvertent cloud encounters. But it seems the required hood time is done during the day. A modest proposal: Required night training should include a night flight under the hood of at least 50 miles to or from a rural airport. As an FW pilot, my impression from various accident reports is that RW control can deteriorate much more quickly at night than in FW. It's not just the newly minted pilots that come to grief at. The accident record includes commercial operators. TSB Canada Recommendation A16-08 Unfortunately the proposed amendment to the regulations CARAC NPA 2021-007 is heavily biased to NVIS. The cure could be worse than the disease, but if nobody flies at night as a result of these proposed regulations, nobody will crash at night. |
There's no evidence that there was no AI in that R44. Indeed, most are delivered with an AI.
Not saying it would have helped in this case. I have an AI in my R44. It is occasionally helpful at night, and for those very hazy but otherwise legal VFR days. |
Originally Posted by Robbiee
(Post 11167589)
Nope, but you are required to be able to see the ground, either by lights on the ground, or adequate celestial illumination.
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Originally Posted by JimEli
(Post 11167712)
AFAIK, the only surface visibility requirement in the FARs is a part 135 regulation (excepting student and sport pilots), 135.207, VFR: Helicopter Surface Reference Requirements.
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§ 135.207 – VFR: Helicopter surface reference requirements.No person may operate a helicopter under VFR unless that person has visual surface reference or, at night, visual surface light reference, sufficient to safely control the helicopter |
First of all this was a (R-22 )so standard equipment for a R-44 is irrelevant.
(Disregard the above I was wrong about the type) Second of all this was a flight conducted under Part 91 (owner operated) so any 135 regulations are equally irrelevant. 91.205(c) does not require an artificial horizon for night flying. Minimum requirements are exactly what the word says, minimum. It doesn’t mention anywhere that this implies safe for all experience levels or at any experience level. You don’t overnight become a year older when you celebrate your birthday, you’re just a single day older. You don’t overnight become an experienced pilot because you pass a skill test or check ride. You simply gain one more day of experience and no longer legally required to be supervised by an instructor. That’s all that piece of paper means. |
Originally Posted by B2N2
(Post 11167778)
First of all this was a R-22 so standard equipment for a R-44 is irrelevant..
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Originally Posted by B2N2
(Post 11167778)
..Second of all this was a flight conducted under Part 91 (owner operated) so any 135 regulations are equally irrelevant..
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....0865dc1401.png |
Originally Posted by gulliBell
(Post 11167785)
Whatever the flight rules, the requirements of the RFM still apply. And in this case the RFM says pretty much what 135.207 says.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....0865dc1401.png 91.205 specifies exactly which instruments are required. Previous post corrected as I was wrong about the type. My brain thought Robinson and my fingers typed 22 |
According to FAA records the 2018 R44 II helicopter was bought 26 April 2021 with a Helicopter add on to his certificate June 2021.
I am therefore assuming that all his rotor craft experience or the majority of it was on his own helicopter. According to FlightAware they were airborne for two minutes. |
Originally Posted by B2N2
(Post 11167792)
Show me where it says AH pls?
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Originally Posted by gulliBell
(Post 11167805)
This has nothing to do with instruments and everything to do with the RFM requirement that orientation during night flight must be maintained by visual reference to ground objects. There is no getting around that whatever instruments were fitted.
Meaningful? No |
Originally Posted by gulliBell
(Post 11167785)
Whatever the flight rules, the requirements of the RFM still apply. And in this case the RFM says pretty much what 135.207 says.
Orientation during night flight must be maintained by visual reference to ground objects illuminated solely by lights on the ground or adequate celestial illumination. |
Originally Posted by JimEli
(Post 11167817)
Or does it?...
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Originally Posted by Agile
(Post 11166973)
when familly is onboard, use a diferent standard.
say no to night, say no to any weather, no deviation from the conservative principles go arround or cancel fligth before your personal minimum |
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