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Logbook 'navigation' definition
Good Evening,
I have been involved in many conversations recently regarding the correct entry of 'Navigation' in logbooks under JAA/EASA rules. Some sources are saying that if the sole purpose of the flight was navigation, say toward a license requirement then the entire time could be logged as so. Others are saying that 0.2 must be removed from the total flight time like used in FAA land. Can the experience of the forum please set this one straight? Regards, LZ |
Others are saying that 0.2 must be removed from the total flight time like used in FAA land. |
Gordy poses a good question....never heard of such a thing.
Also...."Navigation".....do you mean "Cross Country" as opposed to "Local"? |
I apologise for the FAA statement. That was a mis explanation. We are being advised that for flights that the sole purpose is navigation we should remove 0.2 from total flight time. There is no reference to 0.2 in the FAR.
SASLess - Yes, cross country, not local flights. LZ |
We are being advised that for flights that the sole purpose is navigation we should remove 0.2 from total flight time. |
By the sounds of the reactions nothing i am being advised is correct which is interesting and will certainly be returned to source.
We are being advised to subtract 0.2 from our FAA cross county entries and there are mixed opinions for the EASA entry. I well believe that this is a fad/opinion being passed on from instructors but i and others just cannot nail down the exact regs. I have submitted logbooks to the UK CAA before where my cross country/navigation time has been the same as flight time and nothing has been flagged up therefore i believe they are content with this. LZ |
There is NOTHING in FAR 61.1(b)(4) that states you should subtract 0.2. I would agree that you should subtract a "portion" of the total flight time when putting it in the "instrument" column as there is a portion of the actual take off and landing that is NOT by sole reference to instruments. However the total time SHOULD be logged in the "PIC" or "total time" column as appropriate.
My guess is that the school where you trained are confused about definitions. There was a trend a few years back where schools were "adding" 0.2 to the time you were charged---this should have been stopped by this legal interpretation. Here is your cite: “U.S. Department of Transportation Federal Aviation Administration APR 27 2007 (address omitted) Dear Mr. (omitted), This responds to your letter dated December 13, 2006, in which you ask three questions concerning the logging of flight time in a helicopter. The answers all flow from the definition of "flight time" found in section 1.1 of Title l4 Code of Federal Regulations. Your three questions are: 1. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter when the aircraft is sitting on the ground with the engine running and rotor blades turning, but the aircraft has not moved from its parking place and flight has not yet commenced? 2. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter after the end of a flight prior to shut down when the helicopter has set down and come to a rest at its parking place, flight has ceased, but the engine is still running and rotor blades are still turning? 3. If a helicopter is equipped with a "time in service" meter that is actuated only by the collective pitch control, may a pilot add a couple of tenths of an hour of "flight time" to their log book in excess of the aircraft "time in service" meter reading, to account for the time that the aircraft is starting and running up at the beginning of the training period prior to lift off, and that time the engine is idling and cooling down after the last landing, prior to the engine being shut off? The regulations in pertinent part define "flight time" as "pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." 14 C.F.R. § 1.1. As with fixed-wing aircraft, flight time in a helicopter commences the moment that it moves under its own power away from its parking place for the purpose of flight- whether departure is commenced by lifting off or taxiing. (Helicopters can be equipped with different types of landing gear; and those equipped with wheels or pontoons have the option of a vertical lift-off or taxiing before lift-off.) Flight time ends for any helicopter operation when the helicopter comes to rest after landing. It follows from the plain words of the regulation that the circumstances you described could not be logged as flight time. The answer to all three questions is that flight time may not be logged. This response was prepared by Viola Pando, Attorney in the Regulations Division of the Chief Counsel and has been coordinated with General Aviation Division of Flight Standards Service. If you have additional questions regarding this matter, please contact us at your convenience at (202) 267-3073. Sincerely, Rebecca MacPherson Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations Division” |
Very interesting. Thank you for digging that out Gordy.
I wonder how many pilots are actually logging the time from the moment the aircraft moves opposed to the moment the engine is started? Regards, LZ |
Depends upon who is paying the bill!
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I wonder how many pilots are actually logging the time from the moment the aircraft moves opposed to the moment the engine is started? |
I am currently training in the US and we always log it as x/c-time if it is further than 25 NM from the airport of departure. As previously mentioned we usually substract the 0.2 when doing instrument training with hood/foggles etc. I have never been questioned about this on any of my checkrides so far.
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If you log to the nearest five minutes......and you flip up the hood/foggles at ILS minimums.....and have a one minute hover/taxi to your landing spot.....do you have to log 0.1 VFR? Just asking!
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If you log to the nearest five minutes......and you flip up the hood/foggles at ILS minimums.....and have a one minute hover/taxi to your landing spot.....do you have to log 0.1 VFR? Just asking! For example... TT = 1.7 Inst = 1.6 VFR = 0.0 That reminds me----really need to catch up on my logbook entries, have not done them in about 18 months now..... |
Had a big argument about that on my CFI checkride: the DPE did not want to accept the CPL(H) that I held (!!!) because I my logbook entries for XC showed the same amount of time as PIC & Total. His reasoning was that you are not flying cross country for at least 6 minutes it takes you hover taxi out to the runway, prepare your takeoff, takeoff and leave the pattern - for good measure make it 12 minutes or 0.2hrs that hence cannot be logged as XC. Plus 0.1 for every pattern at every intermediate stop!
Took my CFI, the schools chief pilot, ops manager, and an FAA guy about an hour to convince the DPE to accept my CPL and proceed with my CFI oral. :ugh: Right now I'm flying in a place that defines helicopter flight time as "The time between the moment the rotor starts turning and the moment the rotor fully stops". Now that's convenient. |
Right now I'm flying in a place that defines helicopter flight time as "The time between the moment the rotor starts turning and the moment the rotor fully stops". Now that's convenient. |
Gordy,
I maintain one can log IFR for the entire duration of the flight if..... Instrument takeoff from the pad.....done the old Army way...that means with Hood firmly attached and the takeoff is done solely by reference to instruments....the enroute portion is done solely by reference to instruments....and the approach is done solely by reference to instruments....and the landing from ILS minimums takes less than 2.4 minutes or less. As one logs to the nearest 5 Minutes....the VFR portion would have to be logged as "0" and one cannot log "0" and deduct any time from the any other time logged as part of the same flight. Likewise the Cross country time starts from the time you depart on the X-C flight or part of the flight. In a single sector flight....point A to point B....all of it is cross country. If you depart from the local practice area after performing some aerial work....then only that portion of the flight from the Training Area to your destination would be X-C flight. People make logging of flight time difficult.....as the rules can be a bit confusing if you do not read the rules accurately. I submit you can log every single minute of flight time you accrue regardless of License qualifications. Example....I go out and buy myself a Douglas DC 4....a four pistoned engine transport airplane....read the User's Manual....fire that puppy up and go flying. I fly from Miami to some place south like say....Columbia and back with an RON in Columbia. I fly IMC, Night, and make a VOR approach and landing at night. I log Day, Night, X-C, Instrument, an Instrument Approach....and do so with my PPL/Helicopter license.....no big deal. Way back when....I was offered a DC-4 job despite despite not having a DC-4 type rating......on pretty much the same route I described above. When I suggested that would be a problem with the FAA.....I was reminded that would be the least of my problems if I got caught. Which made sense.....and why I decided to try other endeavors. |
If you log to the nearest five minutes......and you flip up the hood/foggles at ILS minimums.....and have a one minute hover/taxi to your landing spot.....do you have to log 0.1 VFR? Just asking! We have never discussed this really, I've only been doing what my cfi have told me to do :O |
Sasless...
I think the bigger issue is that most, if not all Robinson pilots are logging the Hobbs meter---which starts turning as soon as the engine is turning. I have been watching students taking an average of 10 minutes from the time they start the engine to lifting to a hover. Clearly this time cannot be logged. |
I have posted this somewhere else before as this topic seems to pop up a bit.
A fellow I know was picking up a passenger and got out of the machine to brief the passenger and load him up after the briefing which included "follow me" they were walking to the machine when the passenger could see the pilot was going to one side of the helicopter he had brain fart and thought he would go to the other side via the rear of the helicopter and walked into the tail rotor with severe injures to arm and shoulder. Now the helicopter was obviously running the pilot can't log that time because the machines not airborne, but guess who's name went in the PIC colum of the accident report. But how can he be the PIC if he's not able to log the flight time. I think pilots should log start up to shutdown as he is responsible for the machine as long as its running. As far as the navigation time goes sounds like some instructors testing officers etc are taking there job to seriously hovering take off circuits at airfeilds are all part of x/c nav to me. Just my two cents worth |
below is an excerpt from a prior article on FAA/JAA training in Blades Magazine:
....Compare both and ensure that your training encompasses both sets of requirements. For one example, the solo cross-country requirements of both FAA & JAA have the need for a minimum of three takeoffs/landings at differing locations; however the overall distance is just slightly farther under JAR-FCL standards. The FAA requirement is a total of 75nm whereas the JAA requirement is over 100nm. So make certain that your cross-country flight meets the needs of both. Also, please note that many of the rotary wing requirements differ from fixed-wing requirements, so you should consult someone with specific helicopter experience. For example, the definition of “helicopter cross-country flying” under FAA guidelines is any flight in excess of 25nm whereas for fixed-wing the distance is 50nm. To further confuse the matter, JAR-FCL regards any helicopter flight leaving the local aerodrome airspace to qualify. |
There was never any definition of cross-country flight under JARs. The idea that any flight leaving the aerodrome pattern was a cross-country stemmed from a mis-application of a part of the UK ANO that applied solely to the authorisation powers of an AFI. Under EASA rules, however, there is a clear definition:
FCL.010 Definitions ‘Cross-country’ means a flight between a point of departure and a point of arrival following a pre-planned route, using standard navigation procedures. for helicopters, it means the total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped the time during which a pilot is controlling an aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments. |
When the OP decides he has a satisfactory response, what is he going to do with it?
I assume he is trying to check whether he satisfies some minimum hours requirement. If that is so, then I suspect that the definition he needs is the one used by the set of rules he is planning to get a licence/rating from. Many moons ago, we had a thread about P1, and what that meant. I recall that 3 pilots could all claim P1 under the FAA rules (given the right circumstances). We also agreed that only 1 pilot could claim P1 in UK CAA/JAA la la land. Not wanting to restart that thread:just pointing out that you need to choose the right definition, depending upon what you are trying to achieve. If Hot_LZ (OP) is wanting to get a UK EASA licence/rating,then post 24 is probably the answer. It does not exactly answer the question he raised though. Are you so close to the X-C minimum experience that reducing the total by 0.2 per flight would put you below the minimum? {In my discussions with the CAA over the years, I have never heard a requirement to remove 0.2 per X-C flight, but they could change their mind.) |
Thanks for all the replies gents. I have been monitoring closely the responses and agree that #23 & 24 are extremely helpful. No doubt a discussion that will continue for ever more.
LZ |
Not so much relating to navigation here, but in case you hadn't spotted the difference between FAA and EASA (from EASA PART-FCL page 22):
(g) Flight time is recorded: (1) for aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered-lift aircraft, from the moment an aircraft first moves to taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight; (2) for helicopters, from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped; So flight time is very much rotor start to rotor stop as opposed to collective activation. I can't find anything referencing the logging of X-Country time over the pages 22-25, it appears that it's not required to be logged by EASA, but still relevant when applying for ATPL. I think that by that time you will have the required number of proper cross country hours in any case without needing each and every flight out of the circuit. |
That pretty interesting. Looks like those that fly in FAA land (GOMEX or else where) with very easily 10-12hrs a day blade turning time, but only 5-8hrs wheels up are getting cheated out of some time... :ok:
Can I pick which definition I want to use? |
Looks like those that fly in FAA land (GOMEX or else where) with very easily 10-12hrs a day blade turning time, but only 5-8hrs wheels up are getting cheated out of some time... Can I pick which definition I want to use? |
Could get interesting when on your resume you have an addition 3000hrs logged compared to the flight time records your previous Part 135 employer has recorded.
Plent a day of 8/10hrs (crew depending) wheels up, what about the flight time limitations? Bet it would go down well with your employer when you tell him that you're timed out for the year. |
I must say it's odd that stateside they don't consider you to be in command of the helicopter whilst stationary - otherwise, who is? in the event of an incident? I'm not sure what goes on in the GOM but is there really that much time spent stationary, blades turning? Sounds like you should shut down and have a cup of tea if the difference between engine running time, and flight time is 4 hrs :E
Depends.... One can log time form the time the aircraft first moves under its own power till the time it stops. Therefore, if you hot re-fuel then you can log all the time. |
The GOMEX with 20-40 (I've flowen a contract that did 60 regulary) takeoff and landings a day with 5-10min between each can easily result in 4+ hrs of runtime.
Tea! Do we get scones with that too? |
...and jam, of course!
The GOMEX with 20-40 (I've flowen a contract that did 60 regulary) takeoff and landings a day with 5-10min between each can easily result in 4+ hrs of runtime. |
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