PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Rotorheads (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads-23/)
-   -   UK SAR Harmonisation (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/308111-uk-sar-harmonisation.html)

SARREMF 25th March 2008 09:45

Flung dung I think you could be correct! State a position, get caught out some time later in a complete 180, wriggle like a good 'en, then distort the facts. brilliant. Crabb for PM, Crabb for PM. I'll vote for you! [Bet you use that as the subject of your retort not the rest below!]

Crabb, the interim contract DID NOT lead to the formation of SAR-H! The reason it is called interim is because the IPT [it was SABR, SABR SAR then SAR-H as a stand alone] couldnt get the 2 ends to match - the MoD end and the MCA, thus the MCA needed a boost for 5 years to allow convergence! Big word I shall use it more often!

To say that the interim contract led to the formation of SAR-H is distorting the facts. At about the same time the IPTs were shuffling to brigade themeselves into a working formation. It had become obvious that SABR and SAR could not go the same way as they differed so much in requirements. Thus the decision was taken to split and rename/form as its own IPT. In parallel, the Interim contract was being used to check due process in the new IPT and, because the MCA wanted specialist help in assessing the aviation element of the bid, several elements of the SAR force were brought in to help - these being mainly RAF. Although I paraphrase, this is actually public record and the feature of at least one presentation from the IPT.

Lost at Sea. You are clearly a staff officer! Used to putting documents together flagged for your superiors attention. I salute your ability to trawl through Crabbs posts and electronically flag the 180 about turn!

Crabb, sorry old chum, the case for the prosecution does appear pretty cast iron with evidence from your own fingers.

Punishment. I fear the worst for you! You shall be sent from your haven to operate for one year with......the civies. Hung around your neck shall be a sign saying " I am Crabb@savvn I love civies"!

[email protected] 25th March 2008 10:52

No matter how much you gang up and quote previous posts (a particularly tabloidesque pastime) the facts are simple -

1.The RAF did assist with the interim contract but only on a consultancy basis and Bristows bid was found to be significantly inferior to CHC's.

2. The CHC operation seems better than the Bristow's one (as I said), new aircraft being a significant part of that.

3. After the interim contract (though not directly linked as you think I imply) SARH came into being but with only a small RAF contingent.

Can't see a 180 position change here at all but you keep on looking if you find my work so interesting:) There'll be a job with the Daily Mail for the one who manages to distort the facts the most:)

I'm sorry I forgot to detail all the inner workings of and the history of the formation of the IPT's but a. I couldn't be arsed and b. I didn't think anyone would care anyway:)

3D CAM 25th March 2008 12:18

Crab

The CHC operation seems better than the Bristow's one (as I said), new aircraft being a significant part of that
How do you work that out then?
Four new aircraft up north, which you seem pretty good at slagging off, (lack of range etc.) but still crewed by mainly ex Bristow people!
The southern bases are still in the process of transition, using Bristow owned S61s at Lee until at least July. The 139 is not yet up to all weather standard and won't be for some time yet. Less endurance than the 61 as well. Oh. No icing clearance either!
So how is that better??
Yes agreed, Bristow took their eyes off the ball with this contract but I bet that won't happen again!

As for CHC - they are providing a good service - it's just that some of the claims made regarding the platform's capability have not been substantiated - this is probably because the MCA do the press releases and don't quite understand the issues:)

Who do you think gives the MCA their information then?
3D

[email protected] 25th March 2008 14:14

3D - as I understand it, there are significantly more ex-RAF peeps working for CHC now, both front and rear crew - so of course the operation must be better:)

Maybe you should be taking a loyalty pill as you cross to CHC or the thought police will have you!!

I'm allowed to make fun of the poor range of the S92 but I'd still like a shiny new helicopter to do my job in.

If CHC are giving the MCA the press releases then they should probably sack their PR firm:)

I gather the original design for the 139 in SAR role had no means of getting from the cabin to the cockpit internally or vice versa - please don't tell me this is on the production SAR aircraft. Does the 1000kg aux fuel tank stuck at the aft end of the cabin cause C of G problems?

Wiretensioner 25th March 2008 14:42

Come the day, come the event, on the strength of many of the arguments and observations on this thread there is going to be very little HARMONY in the harmonization.:cool:

3D CAM 25th March 2008 15:30

Crab

I gather the original design for the 139 in SAR role had no means of getting from the cabin to the cockpit internally or vice versa - please don't tell me this is on the production SAR aircraft
You are correct to a degree. There is the centre console to clamber over. But why would you want to go from back to front anyway? or vice versa?
C of G problem? What C of G problem?:)
PR firm? Now that has got be the best joke this year!:ok:
WT
There will be harmony. We will all kiss and make up at the end of the day. (That's an order BTW!)
3D

leopold bloom 25th March 2008 15:32

It's not a bug - it's a feature
 

I gather the original design for the 139 in SAR role had no means of getting from the cabin to the cockpit internally or vice versa
Quite right too, we don't want the pilots mixing with the workers. So long as the rearcrew can reach forward to slap the pilots around the head then that will do.;)

[email protected] 25th March 2008 15:57

3D - I guess no-one at your end has thought what you will do if the winchman is incapacitated, either in the aircraft or on the ground/deck/in the sea and the co-pilot needs to start earning his money by either winchopping or winchmanning to save lives. Or, what if you have multiple casualties requiring CPR/restraint/TLC and the co is needed.

I didn't say there was a C of G problem, I asked if there was one - shoving 1000kgs of fuel way aft of the rotor mast usually causes problems in helicopters but I notice the cockpit is a long way forward of the mast - a couple of fat pilots should sort any load and balance problems:)

Leopold - there will be harmony when everyone is doing it our way:)

SARREMF 25th March 2008 17:29

Crabb.

The Bulkhead is an option which has been removed on most SAR cabs so I am told! Oh, the auxillary tank is 400kgs not 1000kgs.

To be honest though, is it me or is this thread getting a bit tiresome? Same old same old going backwards and forwards! We could always stop posting for a time, wait and see how CHC does over say .... 6 months. Then start again?

Yep, Ok where is the fun in that!

SARCO 25th March 2008 17:32

Crab, whilst your understanding of the whole SAR-H process is at best questionable and your obvious bias towards the 'military' way of thinking is blinding, may I suggest that you take the time to realise that things will change.

What will happen in 2012 will be anyones guess but I can guarantee that everyone who contributes or reads this forum who is a SAR professional like yourself, will know that when the time comes we will do our jobs and we will do them damn well, and that the UK will continue to have the finest SAR service in the world and we will all play our respectives roles.

MyTarget 25th March 2008 19:46

Then lets see who comes forward with his begging bowl looking for a job then! And yes there are ex RAF doing the job and Navy and Army too plus the pure civilian SAR trained guys/girls. All working well together.

[email protected] 25th March 2008 19:59

Nah, I'm waiting for SARREMF to offer me a job when he realises there aren't that many current A2 SAR QHIs with 2000 hrs Lynx around:):) 400kgs eh - ah well duff gen from my sources then.

SARCO - I suspect I have a great deal more knowledge of the SARH procedure than you give me credit for - I just don't choose to post it in this forum.

Based on how long it has taken CHC to set up its operations under the interim contract, I think we will be waiting a lot longer than 2012 for miltary SAR to be subsumed into the next setup - the full handover is unlikely to be complete before 2017 even if the MoD agree to pay the 65 to 70% of the costs.

3D CAM 25th March 2008 20:25

Crab

I guess no-one at your end has thought what you will do if the winchman is incapacitated,
I think you are probably right on that one!:hmm:
Multiple casualties??? We are talking about a 139 in SAR mode! You'll be lucky to get 2 bent divers in and on the floor, plus buddies, let alone multiples!!!:)
SARREMF
Don't spoil my fun. This the only thing that keeps me off the plonk. Also keeps me out of the way of "She who must be obeyed".
At the end of the day, nothing any of us say on here will make an iota of differance to the selection process. We will all just get on with it in 2012-2016, with whatever heap of c:mad:p we are given. My money is on secondhand 101's and 149's.:eek:
3D

Rescue1 25th March 2008 20:52

Crab Quote:- 3D - as I understand it, there are significantly more ex-RAF peeps working for CHC now, both front and rear crew - so of course the operation must be better

Emmmm not sure where your getting your info from but I can only think of one RAF Pilot that has joined CHC We many more Ex-Navy Pilots that have joined and some Ex-German SAR pilots, I can't think of any rear Ex-RAF aircrew that have joined since CHC took over the contract but I might be wrong. Hope that helps :)

Also can you explain what you mean by this statement

"Based on how long it has taken CHC to set up its operations under the interim contract"

They are on schedule as agreed with the Coastguard when they won the Interim contract

branahuie 25th March 2008 22:30

"They are on schedule as agreed with the Coastguard when the won the Interim contract"

The machines may be on schedule as far as being in position, but are they 'fit for purpose' yet? (not a dig at crew, by the way)

[email protected] 26th March 2008 06:06

Rescue 1 - what I meant was that although the contract changed in 2007, the full implemenatation of that changeover has yet to be completed and this is just for 4 bases that were already MCA - therefore there will not be the instant change in 2012 that some seem to expect if the mil bases are to be taken over. I am led to believe that the MoD can't afford to pay the full 65-70% in 2012 anyway which is why the full handover wouldn't be completed until 2017. I was not having a dig at CHC (for a change):)

As for personnel, I know of 2 recent RAF pilots on the S92 and 3 ex RAF winchmen who have since become the rearcrew trainers because they are so well qualified (and top chaps to boot).

3D - you only need 2 casualties requring CPR to overload and tire winch op and winchman if there is any distance to hospital, therefore the co would be very useful. If your winchop is winchopping and your winchman is on the deck/land/sea and the first casualty needs urgent treatment, you will need the co again. I know plenty of pilots who have had to venture aft of the cockpit bulkhead in order to help out.

Wiretensioner 26th March 2008 08:41

Crab

Think you will find the ex-RAF rearcrew you talk about are all with the Transition team. As far as I am aware there is only one ex-RAF crewman with CHC and he came from Bristows but despite that he is an alround good guy! Know him well:cool:

bigglesbutler 26th March 2008 09:02

Quote wiretensioner:

good guy! Know him well


Ill second that. :ok:

SARREMF 26th March 2008 09:48

Damn. Damn. Damn! Got to agree with Crabb in one area - having had to go down the back and help a casualty myself once [and send the co-pilot down the back a couple of times] - you do need access to the rear so to speak!

So, its lucky that you can do this on all the types offered for SAR-H or Interim by ALL the OEM's.

Give you a job Crabb? I dont know what you mean!

3D CAM 26th March 2008 12:23

Crab.
Co pilot in the back, agreed, occasionally required.(bloody hell, two of us agreeing with Crab!:uhoh:)
Not sure I would like to climb though the gap in a 139 though!
3D

NRDK 26th March 2008 12:42

Cojoe hopping into the back..only in extraordinary circumstances. BTDT. Albeit very unlikely, will be discussed amongst the crew no doubt and can be carried out in the UK SAR 139. Not agreeing with Crab BTW:8. Don’t need to clutch at straws.:ok:

[email protected] 26th March 2008 13:37

Wiretensioner - I think they started with the transition team but I was given to understand that 3 ex-RAF winchmen (one a QHCI) are being put into trainers/standards jobs for CHC in UK because of their paramedic skills.

As for pilots, there is one who started on transition and is now in management (I believe), one who is a line pilot on S92 and a third who is a TRE on S92.

Maybe they have kept their ancestry a secret to avoid being tainted by association with me:E

Clever Richard 26th March 2008 16:21

It's good to see Pprune becoming a self-feeding organism. Lost at Sea posts something contentious, is asked to provide substantiating evidence and proceeds to quote (surprise, surprise totally inaccurate) Pprune posts.

Marvellous, we don't need the outside world!:D

Lost at Sea 26th March 2008 18:14


Lost at Sea posts something contentious, is asked to provide substantiating evidence and proceeds to quote (surprise, surprise totally inaccurate) Pprune posts.
Yeah well.... that's what happens when you quote Crab! :p

And as Crab himself said (standby for another totally inaccurate post)....


I have a great deal more knowledge of the SARH procedure than you give me credit for
Therefore I put it to you that given his own testimony Crab is a self confessed authority on SAR-H and there is no further need for any additional evidence. I rest my case your honour.

[email protected] 26th March 2008 19:03

Oh dear Lost at Sea - if your only defence is that my posts (which you selectively quoted and distorted) are poor then you really are lost at sea;)

Your logic would impress a 4 year old - possibly - but knowing a bit about a subject does not make one a self-confessed authority on it - never mind, the other kids in the playground will be awestruck at your intellectual prowess:)

Lost at Sea 26th March 2008 19:26

Okay just to further infuriate Clever Richard…. I shall now answer Crab’s points by quoting ……. You guessed it, Crab! :ok:

Crab said

The RAF did assist with the interim contract but only on a consultancy basis

Crab’s reply

“due to the amount of involvement the RAF had in the process” and

“thanks to the involvement of the MoD the service provided will be superior”


Crab said

Surely not - the super-duper all singing and dancing SAR helicopter with less capability than the old one

Crab's reply

The CHC operation seems better than the Bristow's one (as I said), new aircraft being a significant part of that.


Crab said

I seem to remember that the S 92 was supposed to bring much vaunted extra capability to UK SAR

As I understand it, the MCA were offered the satphone option and jumped at it since it was new and, in theory, improved technology. However, the compatability with what presently exists at the ARRCK was either assumed or ignored.


Crabs reply

the MoD were asked for guidance and expertise in examining the interim contract.



And finally Crab says….

my posts are poor :D:D:D

(OK that one was distorted!!!)

Actually I’m beginning to completely ignore other peoples opinions and seem to be gaining an unhealthy disrespect for all civilians it might be time to stop reading Crabs postings….. Long live the RAF!!! Definitely time to go.;) ;) ;)


Bootneck 26th March 2008 19:45

History, just to make Crab smile, and point out I'm not totally averse to Crustacea: This humble numb nuts was trained to winch by a Crab, a man I have the greatest respect for.
The initial civvy offshore SAR contract with Bell 212s fitted with FLIR etc was established by a Crab, yet another man whose company I enjoy. The bid for the Sumburgh and Stornoway operations was therefore a relatively simple equipment conversion to the S61; try telling that to the engineers. The background co-ordination preparatory work was immense.

As we are quoting ancient posts, may I quote from one of mine?

"Crab, stay in a blue suit, make lots of nasty civvy helicopter drivers and winch ops happy." ;)


Finally.
Yomp Bootneck
Sail Navy
Eat Crab

MyTarget 26th March 2008 19:49


As for pilots, there is one who started on transition and is now in management (I believe), one who is a line pilot on S92 and a third who is a TRE on S92.
Yes.....No............Not yet.

Sven Sixtoo 26th March 2008 20:52

Co-pilots helping out
 
Hi all

I understand that if you watch channel 5 in about 11 minutes time you will get a specific example.

I may be wrong on the scheduling - I'm in South Africa on leave, but I'm told it's called "Britain's Bravest" and has had some RAF SAR wank3r on the teaser for the last week or so.

If he said anything out of order could someone please let me know so I can decide whether to come home or not.

Sven

Senior Pilot 26th March 2008 21:21

Warning shot
 
http://www.navy.dnd.ca/cms_images/sh...C_0064_l-2.jpg

I think we've had enough bashing the RAF, thanks. Some of these posts are as close to personal insults as I'm going to allow: play the ball, not the man.

No more :=

Bootneck 26th March 2008 21:39

You're no fun anymore. :):):):):):)




:ok:

Bertie Thruster 26th March 2008 23:05

Senior Pilot Sir; I'm not entirely sure, but from Svens edit isn't he intimating he's talking about himself?

Lost at Sea 26th March 2008 23:44

And just for the record I wasn't insulted by anything Crab said!!!! ;) ;) ;)
:ok:

[email protected] 27th March 2008 06:36

To misquote or paraphrase someone else - 'There are 2 types of people in the world - RAF and those that wish they were RAF' ;)

Don't get too upset SP it's only banter - I think Lost at Sea already works for the Daily Mail;)

TTT - the co might be called to get out of his seat in many situations; sometimes to assist the rearcrew in manhandling a casualty into the aircraft (if on the ground) or to take out more medical kit if both rearcrew are treating casualties (again on the ground), in the air it would most likely be to assist in CPR (which is bloody tiring) or, in extremis, to act as winchman or winchop if one or other is injured or incapacitated in some way. My first job as a co involved me helping the rearcrew put a rigor mortised stiff into a body bag and carrying it to the aircraft!

Bootneck 27th March 2008 08:02

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:

My first job as a co involved me helping the rearcrew put a rigor mortised stiff into a body bag and carrying it to the aircraft!

So, the Chief of the Airstaff visits SAR units. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:



I don't believe this, it has to be a photoshop stunt.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...nbikini126.xml

leopold bloom 27th March 2008 09:29

A real example
 

If i'm reading your posts correctly, you're stating that "occasionally" and/ or "exceptionally" the P2 has been sent into the back to lend a hand, so....

Is this an acceptable practice, an SOP etc?

Is it purely a military acceptance or is it common with civvie SAR too?

Under what stages of the flight is this likely to be done?

What kind of help is the P2 providing?
Training sortie: Captain in LHS, Co in RHS, Winchman on the ground at base of cliff acting as target; Winchman trips,falls, breaks leg. Tide is coming in, nowhere to land, no time to swap seats, no time to get seconds airborne. Capt jumps out of seat, puts on Bosuns chair, gets winched down and rescues winchman. You couldn't make it up. Are you out there Ox?:)

Sandy Toad 27th March 2008 09:44

Crab Not easy to move from front to back in 139, however if you can move sideways......;)
Oops sorry! Knuckles wrapped.:ouch:

Aser 27th March 2008 09:52

Royal Air Force wins Defence Helicopter SAR 2008 Award for Riverdance Ferry Rescue
 
:D:D:D

http://www.shephard.co.uk/Assets/Ima...ar/sar2008.jpg



Royal Air Force wins Defence Helicopter SAR 2008 Award for Riverdance Ferry Rescue

The Defence Helicopter SAR Award is an annual honour bestowed to a Search and Rescue helicopter crew that has performed an outstanding rescue over the 12 months between award dates.

In 2007, the Maryland State Police Aviation Command took the award for the rescue of workers unable to climb down from a 1,000 foot smokestack…that was on fire.

This year, the Royal Air Force’s (RAF) SAR helicopter crew Rescue 122 were presented with the SAR 2006 Award at the SAR conference and exhibition, which was held in Bournemouth, UK in March.

Rescue 122 merited the SAR Award through their actions on the night of 31 January, 2008, in rescuing the majority of the crew of the Ferry Riverdance that was powerless and in danger of capsizing in terrible weather of the UK’s western coast.

The following outline, prepared by the RAF, best explains the circumstances of that evening:

“On the 31 January 2008, Flt Lt Lee Turner (Operational Captain), Flt Lt Giles Ratcliffe (Co-pilot), Sgt John Stevens (Radar/Winch Operator) and MACR Rich Taylor (Paramedic Winchman) were the duty SAR helicopter crew (Rescue 122) based at C Flight, 22 Squadron RAF Valley. At 2016 hrs, Rescue 122 was called to the aid of 23 persons on board the Ferry Riverdance that had lost all power and was in severe difficulties 10 nautical miles north west of Blackpool. Weather conditions on scene were atrocious with low cloud, storm force winds (50 gusting to 70 knots) causing severe turbulence and a sea state of 7 with an associated 10 metre swell. Light levels on scene were also poor meaning that even with night vision goggles the crew were struggling to maintain a visual horizon and references.

Rescue 122 arrived on scene at 2035 hrs and found the Riverdance cross wind, side on to the sea swell and listing between 45 and 60 degrees to her port. The battering of the waves against the slab sided ferry and associated rolling and surfing in the swell meant that on occasion the port bridge wing was dipping into the water and she was at significant risk of capsizing. Riverdance’s Captain had moved all 23 persons on board into the relative safety of the bridge and was requesting the immediate rescue of non essential personnel. After a detailed reconnaissance, the crew decided that the safest option was to winch the passengers from the ferry’s starboard bridge wing and attempts began.

Unfortunately, the strength of the wind and poor visual references meant that this option was technically extremely demanding. Despite some outstanding flying by Flt Lt Turner and exceptional winch operating by Sgt Stevens their numerous attempts to deliver the winchman over the next 30 minutes were unsuccessful. An even riskier option then had to be considered which would involve winching the passengers from the port bridge wing on the low side of the vessel.

One of the ferry crew was tied on to a rope and lowered from the wheelhouse onto the steep deck. Through skilful flying, accurate winch operating and considerable courage from the winchman a rope high-line was eventually delivered to the crew. The listing and violent motion of the Riverdance meant that the crew member was unable to keep hold of the high-line and the crew of Rescue 122 then had to repeat the process, this time managing to deliver the winchman to the deck. Flt Lt Turner was then required to maintain an accurate hover close to the vessel for an extended period of time which required significant power changes and therefore immense concentration.

Conditions on deck were appalling and MACR Taylor had to make his way up and down the steep listing deck whilst being battered by waves to organise the evacuation of the passengers and crew. Throughout this whole process MACR Taylor was not secured to the aircraft and at considerable risk of falling from the ferry; worse still, he would have undoubtedly been killed had the ferry capsized. The crew then began the transfer of casualties and managed to lift a total of eight from the vessel including the recovery of MACR Taylor as a triple lift. During this process the challenging conditions snapped the high-line and yet again Flt Lt Turner and Sgt Stevens were required to re-establish contact with the vessel; this was an especially impressive piece of winch operating from Sgt Stevens as the winchman was on board the Riverdance and therefore unable to offer assistance with the high line. He also had to manage multiple casualties, who were gripped with fear and in shock, to ensure their safety once on board the aircraft whilst maintaining constant high line contact with the vessel. Also, throughout this whole sortie, the input and support offered by the co-pilot Flt Lt Ratcliffe should not be underestimated and without his efforts the rest of the crew would be unable to carry out their functions. He remained calm and collected whilst co-ordinating all aspects of the rescue and communicated with multiple agencies including the captain of Riverdance.

Rescue 122 then flew to Blackpool to drop the passengers, refuel and shut down to wait for further tasking. Shortly afterwards the ferry unexpectedly ran aground on a sandbank and Rescue 177, which had arrived on scene from Prestwick, lifted a further six crew. Left on board were nine essential crew who were going to attempt to re-float the stricken vessel.

At 0415, Rescue 122 was again scrambled to the Riverdance as the vessel was now stranded on a sandbank and with the vessels cargo moving freely on the deck was expected to capsize. Despite already coping with the previous ordeal, by using the same techniques the crew went through the process of safely recovering the remaining nine crewmen. Despite the fact that the vessel was a little more stable the crew yet again had to work extremely hard as the ferry was still rolling and surfing. At one stage, the sudden and unexpected motion of the ferry endangered the aircraft and it was the lighting quick reaction of Sgt Stevens who called an immediate climb that prevented a disaster. MACR Taylor stayed on Riverdance until the last lift when he along with the Captain abandoned the vessel to her fate. The remaining casualties were all dropped at Blackpool Airport safe and well and Rescue 122 returned to base to resume SAR Standby.”

As a footnote to this rescue it should not be forgotten that by 2012, under the SAR-H Programme, the RAF and Royal Navy (Rescue 177) will cease to be responsible for the provision of search and rescue helicopter services along the UK’s coastline. This will instead by provided by a commercial organisation, the winner of the current IPT competition. The eventual winners will have a legacy to maintain.

- Andrew Drwiega


[email protected] 27th March 2008 11:19

That's mah boys:ok:

Rich Taylor said it was the scariest job he's ever done which is saying something!

Bootneck 27th March 2008 12:29

Thou shalt not bask in the light of thine oppos deeds!

Psalm 13. ;)


(Well done to them)


All times are GMT. The time now is 20:53.


Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.