JAA ATPL/CPL(H) Ground School / Distance Learning
 

Hey,
I think ive decided what im going to do, and that is:

PPL, Night, Multi + 100 hours

ATPL Distance learning (with BGS I think)

then im unsure:

Do you guys think it would be too much taking a CPL at the same time. Like a lesson every two weeks?

im thinking about doing it at MME, but im wondering if it is going to be better wating til i have the ATPL(F) then doing the CPL, MEIR, MCC (and Instructor if theres enough money in the pot).

Il be working full time at the same time. The flying I could fit in, but I guess theres a lof of theory involved in the CPL.

Anyone else done this/ You think maybe im just better off just burning a few hours every month for fun?

You cannot start the CPL until you have completed the ATPL theory first. Also, that just gives you ATPL theory credits, you only get an ATPL(F) after you have completed the CPL/IR.

Theoretically you can actually start the CPL course without having passed the theory exams. However you will not be able to sit the CPL Skills test until you can show the examiner a pass in all required theory exams (CPL or ATPL). So it is pointless starting training alongside the exams, you will lose out on the continuity and may cover the course a long time before you can go sit the test costing you a lot more money in the long run. Take one step at a time its usually the easiest and cheapest option.

I'm currently doing my PPL(H) and intend to follow a similar plan as yours.

Trying to fly once every two weeks is not a good way to spend your money. I try and have a lesson at least once a week, but if I miss a week (usually because of weather) then I really notice it in my pocket - I find that the next lesson is partially wasted because I have to cover stuff I should have nailled the previous time. Continuity is a money saver!

If you want to get a head start on CPL skills, use your hour building time after you get your PPL to perfect techniques - if you have a good relationship with your PPL FI, he/she can help guide you.

Also, if you are going to try distance learning, make sure you can commit to it. You won't have much spare time with all the studying you have to do. If you've ever done an OU course you will appreciate that comment!

I've heard that FTOs love distance learning - because it is easy money for them. Many people start the courses but many give up. It doesn't matter how many give up because they are not wasting classroom time.

Other than that, your plan sounds good.

One step at a time untill the money runs out!

Solouk

I have PPL and Night at the moment with 80 hours.

I'm just about to start Module 1 with BGS. Whilst studying for module 1 I will be flying to get my hours up to around 130 TT. I will then sit the exams for Module 1. Depending on the outcome, hopefully a good one, I will then continue to fly the required 150 hours and study for Module 2. When I'm nearing the end of Module 2, I'm going to start my CPL training, hoping that with Module 2 passed all I have to do is sit the CPL and move swiftly onto the MEIR. All being equal I will then start to look for work!

I'm doing this whilst I'm working full time and my expected time frame is 21 months.

I personally will not complete the ATPL exams and then try to start the CPL. It eats into job hunting time and those exams are only valid for so long, so having them without the privilege to fly is useless. As soon as the exams are complete, I'll be job hunting, with the exception of the MEIR training.

I would certainly go up to keep your hand in but try and keep money by for the later stages.

Good Luck

I've just completed my CPL/IR and I wouldn't have wanted to take 3 weeks out of the training to attend a brush up and the exams. I think that continuity of flying is important and if you have a big gap in your training you will probably end up taking more hours to pass your test. More hours not only equals more money but some airlines do look at how many hours it took you to pass your tests.

I studied at BGS and between Mod 1 and Mod 2 I gained my MEP rating. This helped me feel like I was getting somewhere and also meant that when I did my IR I was already familiar with the Duchess rather than going in cold. I also kept flying the PA28's every few weeks to take friends up.

Ikea I would say get your exams out of the way and then put all of your effort into the flying.

We had a candidate once who insisted on starting training before getting the mod 2 results he got half way through his training then found out he had failed an exam had to go of for another month to complete the exam before coming back and completing the CPL. It ended up costing him more as he had lost the continuity in his training and had to do more hours. As I said before the simplest and usually cheapest option is to take everything one step at a time. However it is advisable to try and keep your hand in flying whilst completing the ATPL exams.

I agree with Sky Wave, and LFS.
Do the exams first, and keep your hand in during your studies by doing the hours building and possibly the night rating.
Unless its changed, you can start the distance learning as soon as you have got the PPL.

Distance Learning JAR ATPL at LMU
 

Considering doing the Distance Learning JAR ATPL course at London Metropoliton University. Anyone have any experiance of this? At £1950 it seems good value.

Hi ya,

I'm currently doing the DL course with them. My personal feeling is that they are very good for full time study but not necessarily so for the DL course. Speaking to others you'll be better of with the likes of Bristol etc.

My 2 pense worth.

RB

ditto the above.

started out doing DL with guildhall uni (in those days). the notes were exceptionally wordy and difficult to follow. ended up with severe brain ache sat at the desk drooling uncontrollably with a thousand yard stare. enrolled full time and have to say the tuition was le chein's couilles. nailed all but one exam first time.

when i was there, they were revamping the notes (in conjunction with some swedish uni) to be less cumbersome and a bit more digestable. still seemed harder to read than the bristol notes thou. plus with bristol, there is much more on-line support and forums. horses for courses

am i right in understanding at LMU there are 3 compulsory week long study periods, if so this is what will swing me Met's ways as work will never let m have 3 weeks off, 2 for study and 1 for exams..

The JAA rules require all distace learning courses to give some classroom time, and, of course, you have to take the exams whatever course you do.

Our course (Bristol Groundschool) requires two separate classroom periods of two weeks each. The rules actually require rather less classroom time than this, but we feel you will need the full two weeks times two for revision and clarification.

Dick Whittingham

Apart from the obvious cost differences in doing your ATPL groundschool via. distance learning, are there any other pros?

Far as I am concerned the online question bank facility from Bristol Groundschool is the best in the business. If everything else they do is of the same standard then they definitely are worth the money.

Having seen both LMU's notes and Bristol's I have gone for Bristol - Module 1 arrived yesterday in fact - christ it's scary suff :uhoh:

For me the real advantage of the London Met course was its structure.

The exams are tackled in 3 modules rather than the normal 2 so there is less short-term cramming involved as you take the exams in 3 sittings speading the workload more evenly.

Also this means that the revision courses are only 3-5 days long rather than the usual 2 weeks. This for me places considerably less pressure on work commitments (the reason why I am distance learning rather than full time). I could not take 2 weeks off work for the compulsory classroom based learning followed by another 3 days for exams without causing problems with my employer (and the Mrs for that matter)

I have no doubt that Bristol's notes may well be better (I have their CD) but how the distance learning course is structured at Bristol unfortunately ruled it our for me.

+ I live in London so London Met is easier for traveling as well!:}

Distance Learning OAT vs Bristol: Why?
 

Dear All,

Yes it’s been discussed many times and yes I have waded through the different threads about: ATPL Distant Learning.

Generally, it would appear the big guns in the field have been revamping their respective product.

In my mind I have singled out Bristol & OAT as contenders. (The former combining CD-rom with folders and the latter with revised manuals only – although OAT do have some material offered on CD-rom that could be used in conjunction).

PPRUNE threads definitely have a bias towards Bristol; yet OAT manuals appear to be used as back up solutions to other courses’ failings and pop up regularly as preferred training material. In terms of constructive negative comments against OAT – the worst I have come across is the content is too deep.

Does the latter point mean Bristol’s notes cut to the chase and are concise where OAT fulfil other requirements to cover a greater scope? At the end of the day passing the exam is what one is measured on and technique is king. [Not teaching to suck eggs].

It was suggested to me some months ago by an instructor at OAT to pick up a copy of the Navigation manual and have a browse to obtain a gut feel as to the depth and level required; suggested because in his experience Nav being one of the heavier subjects tended to prove more challenging. This I did and whilst there is a lot of detail I couldn’t grumble about its’ conciseness.

BUT that’s where I’d appreciate some input please:

Apart from the 3-D animations and CBT solution Bristol boasts that their course can be done entirely from paper: How does the content compare to the typical OAT manual?

What is the typical turnaround time from emailing instructors at OAT with queries?

Does anybody have experience of using the OAT Virtual College and how does the forum compare with that at Bristol which looks both user-friendly and accessible to even non-Bristol students?


Kind regards,

EG:ok:

P.S. I have no axe to grind and certainly would prefer if replies answered without entering the usual unconstructive slagging match. Many thanks in advance.

I can't comment on OAT or Bristol - but I found CATS excellent and have not heard anyone there say anything bad.

I would suggest you try and make the time to pop into all the schools you are considering (preferably when one of the residential weeks for the distance learners is on) and see what the atmosphere is like / what the students say.

As for CATS take a look at: http://www.cranfieldaviation.co.uk/ and see what you think. Give Stuart Smith a call as well - his enthusiasm for learning is really motivating.

Whoever you pick - enjoy.

OC619

P.S. To be pedantic I did the CPL distance as opposed to ATPL.
P.P.S. If EGLD is an indication of where you are then CATS is certainly accessible (sp?).

If considering the wider subject then look also at Ground Training Services (GTS) (www.gtserv.co.uk)

What are you looking for in a ATPL course?

Passing the exams - (yup!)

Experience of the instructors - (gen. reqd)

Good notes in detail that give you the backup in learning - (reqd)

Support from experienced tutors - (needed unless just there for the exams the second time around)

In reality all of the approved courses can meet the basic requirements but what level of personal experience do you get from the tutors and how big is the class (a lecture hall or a tutorial room, that is the question)

h-r:)

egld0624

Interesting and well thought of questions. I shall do my best to answer. I did the OAT distance learning package and acheived good passes, so I will try to give you my opinions.

First, answering your specific queries:-
1. "What is the typical turnaround time from emailing instructors at OAT with queries?"
My replies to the few times I did email were within 2 days. They were also happy to discuss problems over the telephone.

2. "Does anybody have experience of using the OAT Virtual College and how does the forum compare with that at Bristol which looks both user-friendly and accessible to even non-Bristol students?"
I never had need to use virtual college.

3. The content of OAT manuals has been revised since I started (2003) and alot of needless information has been chopped.

So, overall I was quite happy with the distance learning package as one would expect from a professional school. But what do you want to do afterwards?

If you want to complete all your training by the modular route then you may want to choose a single FTO who can take you all the way. I have completed my CPL, however due to policy decisions within OAT, I now have to wait until May to start an IR, so I will have to split my training and go to Bristol.

It is worth researching how far OAT or CABAIR or whoever are willing to take you through the modular route so that you do not get caught by unexpected policy changes.

There is nothing between the 2 at all apart from the availbility of the local courses.

BOTH will do the JOB both have a good set of notes so choose the cheapest one for you including accomadation and all the other bollocks. And i don't have a clue which is cheaper.



MJ

Hi
Have been using Bristol notes and their forum and qbank.
Have just sat module 1, and found that the feedback, course material and online instructors covered all that was necessary. I had some Oxford manuals and felt that they were almost too comprehensive. As much as I hate to say it, there is so much to assimilate in a short period of time that Oxford manuals where a little too scary, although I was looking at them as back up and they were 5 years old. It would be nice to be able to say that there was enough time to get to grips with ALL the material and that you would finish the ATPL's with a great depth of knowledge, but the truth is, for me at least, it came down to simply being able to answer the questions on the day, and I certainly only have a brief understanding of the overall. At home, you have A LOT of figuring out to do on your own, even with online tutors, but sometimes it's hard to ask the right question to get the exact answer you are looking for. Therefore, you need material which does not go into intricate detail, which may end up overwhelming you. In full time courses, you have a few weeks per subject, and the instructors guide you through the material, pointing out only what you need to know about, and you cannot underestimate how valuable that is ( what I have been told by some full time course friends, not my own experience). At home you do not have that benefit, and tend to think that everything you read is massively important, so the material needs in my opinion to be simplified. NO COURSE WILL BE PERFECT!
I am happy to continue with Bristol and the pass rate is high.
Time to get answers back online, varies from that same day to 2/3 days. A search will reveal that many students before you have asked the same questions so you may find the answer you are looking for already on the forum. QBANK QBANK QBANK!!!!
Get on it ASAP and start answering questions, it will get you prepared for the type of questions that come up in the tests.
I could not have answered 75% of my test at least without the progress tests and the question banks. Again, Bristol are accurate and for me were bang up to date. Will have my results next week so lets see!

Long and short, you are dealing with the two big guns and both have great reputations, I chose bristol and am quite happy.
Best of luck you will do well with either I would imagine.
Sorry that's not much help but having only delt with one school, I can only offer one side of the story. I simply feel Bristol may be a little more concise......:ok:

GTSERV
 

Hi,

GTServ will help you not only to pass the JAR exams but also to be in better shape for a technical interview, those guys are really good and very experienced instructors, they will help you to LEARN and UNDERSTAND all the knowledge you require to be a better professional.

Cheers:ok:

The answer is thus clear.

TRAIN with GTS.

USE the BGS Q Bank for extra exam practice.

SUPPLIMENT knowledge with the OATS manuals which you can buy from Transair.

EMERGE from training better equipped than everybody else and with a competitive advantage in a competitive world.

You need the likes of OATS and BGS to get you through the exams. Anyone thinking that the day you pass your final 14th exam is the day you stop learning needs their head examined. No course is going to equip you with everything you need to know to pass interviews, or allow you to have a long conversation with the guy who designed the hydraulic system on a 757.

I did BGS, and I got through all of my exams fairly easily. I've no complaints with BGS. But, I've found myself reading through numerous books on various technical subjects since passing my ATPLs. I made many mental notes to re-visit topics when I was studying - but at the time of my exams all I wanted to do was pass.

This was nearly 10 months ago. The subjects are so vast and interesting (well, some of them) that you will build knowledge gradually over the coming years.

I would canvass opinion on BGS, OATS and GTS - all of whom have good reviews.

You will notice that, as ever, the respective schools are promoted by their current students who, almost by definition, have no experience of the schools they didn't attend. Therefore their opinions are, not to put too fine a point on it, worthless!

Almost all of the groundschools that are used by the contributors to this forum are worthy establishments that try to do their very best for the students who pay their mortgages. None (as far as I am aware) will try to give you less than good value for your money. All you can do is visit those places that interest you and, having talked to the staff, make your own mind up as to which will suit you best. Don't ask the students of other schools to make your mind up for you; that way lies dissatisfaction.

Scroggs

scroggs,

"You will notice that, as ever, the respective schools are promoted by their current students who, almost by definition, have no experience of the schools they didn't attend. Therefore their opinions are, not to put too fine a point on it, worthless!"


That is a rather harsh comment. I accept your comment about existing students promoting their own FTOs, however, I have tried to give my personal experience of OAT (not comparing it to other FTOs) and have illustrated a problem that I now face which could also prove to be a significant factor to others when choosing where to train.

I would like to think that I am a mature, intelligent and independent minded person capable of looking objectively at any decision to be made. Surely my opinion is not worthless.

Scroggs has hit it on the nail again.

I have used OAT notes and I have read the Bristol notes. Both very good. Some subjects at OAT are better than Bristol and some are better at Bristol. The feedback is all the same as the students tend to get there hands on everybodys and the staff copy it. There is differences of opinion though about what some of the answers are.

I would make your choice purely on a money choice between the 2.

Cost of the course.
Local acc charge for the 2 week residental parts.
travel to get there.

Add everything together and go for the cheapest.

The only reasons why I went to OAT was because they didn't charge me for sending books to Germany and it was easy to get a bus from LHR to Oxford.

MJ

I do think Scroggs is being a little harsh, and the term worthless is probably a little over-the-top. However, I do agree, that at the end of the day, you can only make the decision yourself, from visiting or speaking with the schools. I used PPRUNE to gauge an opinion of each before coming up with a shortlist.

The decision might come down more to timing of courses, class numbers, and overall convenience, as the quality is probably quite similar.

Ok, 'worthless' is perhaps putting it a little strongly, though I meant it only in the context of making comparisons between schools. Student A may think his school is fabulous, which is nice, but without the experience of other schools, he has nothing on which to base a comparative assessment - and he may be completely wrong. However, if he has achieved good passes in a reasonable time, is that all he needs to know?

If I was looking for a new car, I wouldn't ask for the opinions of those who'd only ever driven one car to help me in my choice. If I did, I'd get lots of young people telling me that the 1989 1.0 Vauxhall Nova is the business, especially when it's pimped to the max. Not a lot of use when what really suits my needs is a Volvo V70T5, which, of course, the Nova-driving yoof has never experienced.

That is why it is so important to do your own research, and to visit the schools you are considering. At least then you'll be able to say why you chose a particular school, and will have some idea of why you turned down the others.

Scroggs

<splutter!> A Volvo?!?! Well if you must I suppose..

As has been pointed out here - there is no substantive difference between the two products worth worrying about. I really would choose the one closest or cheapest based on those criteria alone.

Scroggs is right to say that people posting articles supporting the only groundschool they have ever attended are fairly worthless. NOT unwelcome by any means. Lots of glowing reports are nice and comforting to read. But unless you actually went to both then its a bit like the Modular vs Integrated debate.

Good luck. The JAA exams are of course much much easier than the good old CAA exams that Scroggs and I sat many years ago when men were men and multiple choice answers hadn't been invented yet.. ;-)

Cheers

WWW

Dear All,

Many thanks for all your guidance, suggestions and helpful input.

I am in the process of setting up a meetings with BSG, OAT & GTS.

I intend to bring a long the current OAT Nav manual to the competing schools and benchmark their content to try and obtain a gut feel to just how comprehensive the content within the same subject is/handled. I appreciate this is only part of the picture and hence am obviously using the visits to gain further insight to make my ultimate decision.

I am genuinely looking forward to the hard time ahead with my head down learning the material.

Thank you all again,

EG:ok:

I am a bit put out to say the least by the various comments about the honest and helpful opinions given by existing ATP students in describing experiences of their respective FTO's.
An opinion about what has been experienced by each student is all that was asked for, and that is all that was given!!
I however did have the experience of two schools, and was extreemley unsatisified with the material and help that was given to me by my first school. As a result I went to BGS for help, purchased their material and carried on. Of course students can only give one opinion, but hey, isn't that what this forum is about? It seems to me that all comments ventured were true and as honest as possible, and given, not to promote a particular school but simply to help the guy out!
So go easy with the 'worthless', as under the circumstances, what else can we offer but our experience.........makes you wonder why we bother!:*

Well thats not what your previous post implied.

The loyalty that wannbies give to their training providers is sometimes quite strange. Its almost as if you have to justify to yourself that you made the right choice. And any inferance on PPrune that you made the wrong choice starts self doudt. Which triggers a back against the wall aggresive fight your corner. With the usual responce after a while because there can be no winner of personal comments like "your an arragant arse I hope your never on my flight deck" and the like.

I did my ground school with OAT and got them all, got what i felt was value for money out of the course. But that still dosn't stop me from having a go at there dubious marketing of there other courses.

The which one is better between OAT and BGS is pretty much a none starter because you are talking about 2 companys who have set the market standard for that course.

Unless you have been to both OAT and BGS your opinion isn't really worth alot. Even if you did and didn't particularly like one school there are that many students going through both and succeding that it doesn't really matter.

And to be honest once you have the exams in the bag you don't really care. Its a stressful time getting the theory crap out the way. Which when compared to the stress of the IR seems like nothing. You proberly won't ever be asked or show your results ever again. In 12 months time when asked what marks you got you won't have a clue.

MJ

Mad Jock

I have no loyalty one way or the other, and I am not in anyway trying to justify my choice. As for not stating previously that I had had only the experience of one school, well that's simply because I didn't think it important to talk about dealing with a non-starter when the question related to two specific schools. I couldn't care less what school somebody attends, but seeing as someone took the trouble to ask what we thought, well I simply stated the simple fact that I thought BGS were good and got me through mod1.
That's it, no major loyalties, a simple answer to a simple question.
If someone asks you what you think of a specific car that you own ( based on Scroggs analogy), you're not going to turn around and say " sorry, can't be arsed answering your question as I've ever only driven this car and nothing else!" You would however tell him exactly what you think of your car and let him go and make his own decision. Jeeeez what is the matter with everyone..............:confused:
PS spare me the wannabees, it's a ridiculous term!!

any1 have any experience of London Met distance learning? what is their material like. I believe they also spilt the course into 3 which also makes it easier to digest

I am distance learning with London Met. The course notes are in the form of text books which certainly cover all the required syllabuses and yes, it is split into three, more manageable chunks.

Have just complete Phase B and so far have passed all first time. Now starting on Phase C....

There was a survey in one of the national papers recently that stated that when advertisements appear for new cars, the majority of people who read them have just bought that model.

The reason given was that they were trying to justify to themselves why they had parted with the money. So I can see how we do justify our own choices. Only time will tell.

More often than not it's your personality type and how you "fit in" to a particular school will be a deciding factor.

Therefore, it is imperative for the prospective student to either visit the schools in question or if that isn't possible, take the advice of someone he/she knows.

eg, I recommended BGS to a very good friend (now hubby) over the rest simply because I knew him and what sort of environment he'd prefer.