You asked much the same question yesterday.

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Heliport

Job market for new CPL(H) in Europe?
 

Been training in the US & A... Decided to head on back to Europe. Going through the torturous CPL (H) ground school at the moment, and I'm getting different signals about the market out there. Especially since I'm sitting with a mere 220 hours TT. Any opinions? Not among the desperate ones, since I don't expect to land anything huge with a couple of hundred hours under my belt, but I thought I'd consult the European market for the first time. . . Glad to be here...

Another thing... This "Italian Question Bank" I hear about, is it as valuable as I hear? If it is, it could make for some christmas-time litterature for me, so be honest, please.

...Anywho, if there are any rotorheads out there, I'd love to hear from you. I'm curious what the next few years will be like. Actually, I'm more curious as to if I will pass these exams. I've been flying for a year and a half, thinking I'm all that & a bag of chips, waving my FAA license around... I've barely dipped my toe in the water, haven't I...? =)

- A

Takes rose tinted glasses off :uhoh:

FBR,
Excuse the brevity and directness of my response.

Particularly for the UK as a newly qualified CPL(H) with minimal hours I'm afraid your licence is basically worthless. Chances of finding any work with a basic CPL - almost zero. Chances of finding enough work to survive financially, zero less a thousand :(

You'll have two options once you have the CPL both cost roughly the same (about £40K).

1) Build additional hours and then get an FI ticket. No guarantee of a job.Lots of dubious companies. If you are lucky enough to find a job expect to work long hours, be poorly treated and very poorly paid (Think in many cases glorified slave labour with scraps of flying). Long term - little prospect of any real progress.

2) Multi engine Instrument rating. Very high risk. Only real option is to look towards the North Sea 'big three' and hope they are recruiting and your face fits. UK onshore with minimal hours and a 'wet inked' IR you stand no chance.

Sorry for the reality check. Search the archived 'Training and Job prospects thread' and you'll read similar. The archived thread is the best place to start, and will explain the limited responses made to your post.

There is no easy way to break into this industry. The biggest factor is LUCK.

To answer your last comment - You've yet to fill the pond, let alone dip your toe in it :eek:

FW

@flingingwings

Gotta say that a pretty harsh and cynical view.

The work is there you just go out and find it. Yeah in the beginning its tough but what job isn't when your learning the trade.

Was at my local flying school Tuesday and asked about prospects. The Chief FI said we would take 3 FI's right now. Trouble is getting a FI who knows what side of the heli to get into.

In short if you not a dumb bunny there is work.

Being personable with the right attitude goes a long way

About the Italian Database - most of the plugs have been filled on that now (I know the guy who did some of it) - it's quite old, but still useful as representative questions rather than real ones. It's now six editions removed.

Good luck!

Phil

Velboy,

Sorry I don't agree. My comments aren't harsh, they're a realistic honest opinion on the current state of the industry in the UK for low hours guys. A touch cynical I concede but I've self funded nowt to CPL-FI- and ME IR and therefore feel I am qualified to comment upon my experiences and those of others I know.

Perhaps as a CPL holder you'd care to elaborate on how much revenue flying you complete? Do you fund your own LPC's and base and line checks? Care to elaborate on your own profiles comment of 'Computer consultant wanting to fly'? Or why other posts of yours ask for people willing to share hours building costs? No point implying a straight CPL will get you work, when you feel you need to self fund extra hours yourself.

This ISN'T an attack. It's a reality check that will allow FBR to decide how much he is willing to gamble in order to 'live his dream'. Perhaps FBR has no extra cash for any additional training and no other trade upon which to gain an income........

Did this CFi tell you how much an FI course with him would cost? How many hours per year you'd fly? Why do they need three instructors in November? Can any school guarantee you a position post course? :confused: (Ok now I'm bordering on cynical - but there are lots of additional factors to consider. Remember a flying schools job is to sell you training NOT employment!)

My views are only there to enable FBR to make an informed decision before he parts with some serious amounts of cash. And I hasten to add similar views have been noted on this forum for some time. Sections of this industry survive on the willingness of low hours guys to keep paying for stuff themselves and/or work for free. A mornings phoning round will elicit the turn over of new FI's (at some schools) and the terms and conditions offered. If you still don't believe me I'll give you the numbers of a few current experienced FI's and you can hear their views first hand. As a former one myself I have nothing but respect for the vast majority of FI's - they work harder for less than any other section of this industry I have encountered.

I'm not saying FBR or anybody else for that matter shouldn't go for it. But, better to know the risks and approach 'the dream' with your eyes wide open rather than listen to sales hype.

Within many schools a 'dead mans shoes' policy exists. When somebody above you moves on, you make progress. For small operators many aren't willing to allow all to progress simultaneously. It's harsh, but hey that's life.

I don't regret any of my flying. I regret some of the places I've worked though and some of the rubbish I've had to tolerate in order to make progress. I am also lucky in that I now have a very good flying job, with an excellent company.

Being qualified, enthusiastic and personable are all good traits, but ultimately LUCK remains the biggest factor. I was lucky. Are you going to guarantee FBR the same?

FW

Well said.

@flingingwings

As you can see I don't post much on here. I know why now. Really must update my profile sometime.


I think we look at the glass differently.


Enjoy yourself.

Velboy,

Please lose the chip on your shoulder. It would be more benificial to FBR and many others if you took the time to explain your differing views.

This industry is 2% qualification and ability and 98% right place at right time. What is your objection to FBR being presented with all the facts?

I can only comment on my experiences and on those of others I know. As you hold a CPL perhaps you'd share how you attained that all important foot in the door? How much revenue flying do you complete each year? Potential earnings? Long term prospects? Mine is a fair honest reflection of the difficulty a low hours cpl will face, as somebody who's been there, and who now works in the Uk onshore SPIFR section of the industry. I fear (as per your April 2006 posting regarding R22 and R44 hire near Chester for an ICAO CPL holder who wishes to fly for recreation only) that you'll be unable to provide any of the answers that FBR and others pray for.

Alternatively if you don't hold an FI rating perhaps you would share details of this school looking for 3 full time FI's as I'm sure many would be interested.

Your first impressions are way off the mark. You will be hard pushed to find anybody more committed to this industry and more upfront about the potential pitfalls. I looked at your profile to see what you were basing your views upon. Amending your profile won't change the reality FBR and others will face.

Take or leave my views. It matters not to me. I love going to work. I loved teaching people to fly. I risked everything and my gamble paid off. It doesn't change the fact that it was still a gamble.

FBR - I'm truly sorry this industry is no brighter for low hours CPL's. Good luck whatever you decide to do.

FW

Flingingwings has it spot on. I am in exactly (and I mean exactly) same position as him and we know from experience what the score is here in the UK. Any school who says they need 3 instructors, right now, at this time of year is talking out of their chocolate starfish. A, weather is !!!!!. B, only reason anyone needs instructors is if they have just lost every instructor they had for one reason or another. Tells you something about that company straight away.

Velboy, with a freshly minted CPL(H) and a couple of hundred hours, you're not gonna get any work, unless you or daddy owns the company of course. Granted, there are one or two people lucky enough to fly a 206 with minimum hours, but if they have a mishap, it really would make things worse for any other low timer coming along.

This industry promises much and gives little. Don't believe all of those flying company owners who will pretty much tell you what you want to hear.:=

I have no chip on my shoulder and I bare no grievance about this wonderful industry.

I totally agree it’s about contacts; networking is important in any industry and inevitably that is what will get you in door. The right attitude will keep you there.

I have no objection to FBR being presented all that facts but he wasn’t until my comment. I didn’t say it was easy just there are breaks to be had and making contacts allows to maximise those breaks

I wish you all the success in your chosen career.

Now if choose to take my comments another way then that your choice and I respect that.

I’d just like to say thanks to Flingingwings for setting the very honest tone of this thread. As a PPL(A) holder who got bored of fixed wing and who is currently doing the PPL(H), like many I dream of flying for a living as a helicopter pilot, all spurred on in no small measure by the amount of people in the training industry repeatedly telling me how now is just ‘The best time in twenty years’ to be coming into rotary aviation with a fresh issue CPL in the back pocket. However, reading the very honest sitrep in this thread has confirmed what I have always feared deep down – as a mid 30’s bod with 200 odd hours under the belt, I will be lucky to land an instructors position. Anything better is probably the same odds equivalent of a lottery win.

Lets just say I’ll not be making enemies in the day job just in case, and Flingingwings, again, thanks for saying it like it is. Some of us newbies like hearing it without the varnish.:cool:

This about says it all. There are many in this position. But for every one whose gamble paid off, there are probably ten still struggling.

Having got my CPL and FI rating, I struggled to get a flying job where I wasn't bullied and treated like !!!! or spending more on travelling than I was earning. Due to luck and contacts I had a good summer this year (thanks KMS :ok: ). But now? One to two hours instructing per day, weather permitting. I'd earn more working in Tesco! Even my very experienced CFI warned me that I'd probably need another string to my bow over winter. Yes, there may be the very occasional school or FI with oodles of work; I'm not saying anyone on here is lying...please tell me where though. But occasional luck isn't to be relied on when considering a career change, any more than assuming you'll win the lottery because a lucky few do. Kissmysquirrel and Flingingwings tell it like it is; believe them!

Talking of second strings to bows, one of mine is writing about what I love, as many of you know. I don't normally blow my own trumpet, but I've just had an article published in Flight Training News on this subject - opportunities in the industry. I'm not saying it's all spot on, but it might help some of you newbies, so may be worth taking a look. (And I did most of the research for it on PPRuNe, so thanks to many of you.;) )

At the risk of going off thread, how many wannabees out there are prepared to work overseas? I did my training in South Africa and loved the place so much I decided to stay. It wasn't easy getting work early on but it sounds like I had an easier time than many new CPLs in the UK - and since I got my Instructor rating I have been turning work down.

Once you get around the licence conversion process (assuming you already have a UK CPL - otherwise do the licence here) newly qualified CPLs mostly get work flying R44s for Netstar, tracing stolen cars. Money is poor but you can (just) live on it and you can expect around 25-30 hours per month. Apart from that there is a fair bit of pleasure flights, especially in the coastal areas, cash in transit escorts, photography, game capture (specific rating required) as well as instruction.

On the down side; violent crime, AIDS, poverty, bureacracy (getting a work permit or residents permit will drive you insane). Anyway, it worked for me.

KMS, Whirlybird - Thanks :ok: Some people simply won't listen until multiple people beat reality into them :ugh:

Chukkablade - You're welcome. having been grossly misled myself I vowed never to treat anybody that way. Thats why I no longer instruct :{

Vellboy - I never said you need contacts. Contacts may help, but they still provide no guarantees. Reality for many is a 45-70K gamble for nothing in return.

This industry is LUCK, plain and simple. For every individual that tells it like it is, there are 4 or 5 selling it like it isn't (Sorry for nicking your quote FlyingPencil). You help no wannabe implying anything different:=

Alot of good advice here ,but you make your own luck ! Spending 70k on a career you wish to start isnt really that much over a life time .Ask yourself a few questions like :

1. How much do I really want this career?
2. Can I do it part time [keep some real money rolling in] ?
3. Am I dreaming of what this job should be like as opposed to what it actually involves ?
4. Am I prepared to work alot of hrs with sometimes little reward ?
5. Did I have difficulty getting or holding on to employment before ?

Etc etc

Its calculated risk ,do the research and dont fall into the marketing trap of seeing yourself in a big shiny helicopter with a flightsuit and helmet after 200 hrs.I think some of the older boys that post here are not giving honest advice. As much as they "hate" their job they wouldnt [couldnt] do anything else !

Ive witnessed lower than average helicopter pilots get the jobs cause their face fits ,sometimes its who you know.
Risk management is something your faced with every day as a heli-pilot so I suggest wannebes have a big picture look at the situation before they spend their dollar.

At the end of the day Helilad, I'll be one of those guys who spend the £40k+ and give it a go, but Im damn sure going into it with high hopes and low expectations. It's a lottery, and if I dont buy a ticket, I can't win, and thats a fair comparison as to how I view this game. If my face fits someday I'll get my chance, but I accept I'll be one of the many chasing (it would seem) fewer and fewer positions.

Listening to the older guys who a) were never military trained and who did it the civvy way and b) dont have an ulterior motive for painting it all smiles and warm crew rooms, then one consistent theme is that you have to be damned lucky, and be prepared to accept a few hard knockbacks along the way. Also, if you have another trade to fall back on, keep your contacts in that industry, as you may have a few hard winters to endure before the sun finally shines on you. That's advice I recieved from a CPL(H) who was working as a used car salesman the last time I saw him just to make ends meet, and I'm not about to forget it.

My opinion, for the very little its worth, is that any newby who thinks the above 'hard knock' scenarios dont apply to them has so far led a very fortunate, priveledged life - and those tend to come to grinding halts at some point along route.

In the end though, SOMEDAY, it should all be worth it:O If not, at least I can tell my kids I tried.

At what point do employers stop laughing you out of the door in the UK? I am curious about the requirements for an entry level turbine job.
Would a CPL with 500 (or 1000?) turbine in say a 206 be employable?
I'm trying to put a different spin on an already well beaten horse, so forgive me if this has been said before :)
I'm working on a way to come home from the US, so if any one has any info it is much appreciated.

with 1000hrs Turbine time, (multi eng a definite advantage) over 2000hrs TT? JAR CPL? With plenty of night flying experience, Police would probably be interested.
Again, it's supply and demand, and does the face fit. I suppose it all depends on what you're happy to be doing.

Again, i'll say just because someone has a JAR CPL/IR, 1000TT, Commercial experience and turbine time, it doesn't mean there's any work.

It's NOT luck, it's attitude. But that goes for every profession. Of course there are pilot shortages but only for people with the right attitude. Paying the money to get a licence doesn't mean anything, everybody can buy the licence.

Working hard, giving it all you have, not beeing picky the first few thousand, will bring you eventually where you want to be. And you're out there on your own, don't expect people to help you. When you get a little help every now and then it's just very nice, but don't expect (or worse demand) it.

I've always been a great believer that 'luck', be it good or bad, is proportionally generated from 'attitude' HillerBee, so I accept your comments and find myself nodding my head in agreement as I read them. I've always been viewed as 'lucky' in my current career (much to the chagrin of some), but I've always held the view its because I keep smiling even when its 'sh!t tasks are us', do any job to 100% of my abilities (even when it would be easy to hide that I've done a slapdash effort) and generally just get on with it without bitching like a spoilt kid.

Hopefully professional aviation will take to that sort of person the same as the engineering profession does. If so, I'll get there:O

About to start out on the ladder...
 

I am currently in the navy and am planing to start training for my PPL in january, and hopefully gain it by April time. I then plan to work torwards my CPL IR over the next 3 or 4 years whilst staying in the navy.(none of this is being done through the navy, im planning on using cabair during my leave periods.) Once i have gained my CPL IR and am hitting .. say 250 .. 300 hours... am i likely to find an employer? im not to bothered about money, id just like experience. Also... would my job help? I am about to finish a 6 month tour in afghanistan working with the helicopter support unit... my main job has been Hooking underslung loads and traveling with the chinooks managing the freight and passengers. I also regulary fast rope out of lynx's and have completed the navy's Helicopter underwater escape training (Dunker). I was also involved in the rescue op for a downed lynx in 2004 in the channel, so i obviosly know the dangers of flying to :(.. although im not sure this would be the best thing to mention, both for personal moral reasons(4 people died) and for any potential jobs thinking i might freak out while flying..

Any comments would be appreciated

Chris

If you are willing to travel and do your FI course, yep you should find work no problem. In particular there is a shortage of FIs in Ireland.
Without an 'in', getting work as a bare bones CPL is pretty difficult. But can be done.

job hunt
 

hi guys, i'm back with a CPL(H) finally.

Any tips or rumors of companies around the world recruiting experiencless (over 150 hours) but full of enthusiasm pilots?

i know is not easy, whilling to start cleaning choppers, hangars, whatever needed.

thanks guys.

Employment in the UK
 

I understand at the moment it is a long, painful and very expensive exercise to convert say an oz licence to a UK (or JAR).

What are employment prospects (and conditions/ pay etc) like at the moment in the UK??? I have a Multi Command IR and a few thou hours etc however, before I hand over my hard earned Australian pesos for a licence conversion I would like to have some kind of idea as to employment likelyhood and what the state of play is at the moment...are people in the industry happy and optimistic about what the future holds for rotary drivers?

Any recommendations on where to do a conversion woud be appreciated also.

Anyone?

Thanks

Turkey

Turkey,

With your sort of background, Turkey, you shouldn't struggle to find work over here. Both the offshore operators and the onshore charter operators would be interested in talking to you once you've got your JAA licence. I can think of 3 largish operators in the London area who have all recently been looking for someone with your experience.

You might just need a bit of time to acclimatise to the UK environment but that should be covered in your CPL/IR conversions.


Personally speaking, I'm pretty happy with my current 'lot'. The industry generally has recently experienced a very high level of recruitment, both on and offshore. But beware of a couple of things: a) as you are no doubt aware, aviation is very cyclical. If we are currently on the crest of a wave, which way is it likely to go? By the time that you've converted your licence, the situation might be very different. b) If everybody is correct, we've got a recession coming up around the corner. I can't help but feel that the helicopter industry (esp onshore charter and training) is going to get hit by this.


Your biggest hurdle will be the theory exams. I suggest that you get a start on these by going distance learning with either Bristol Ground School or Caledonian Advanced Pilot Training.

There are a few flying schools which would be suitable for the flying conversions. The best for you would probably be determined where you end up being based. Try this thread for plenty of suggestions and recommendations.

Finally, you don't mention if you've got a 'right to work' in the UK. Without an EU passport or visa, this all might be bit of a non starter.


Anyway, I hope this helps and the best of luck with everything. Send me a PM once you've got your JAA licence. :ok:

Question
 

Hey guys, just after some info if anyone can help....
I know, everyone thinking deja vu!!!

I was wondering if anybody knew of any operators around Cumbria area?
I am a low hour CPL (R22, B206), trying to get work / hours / funding for FI - the usual scratching for someone in my position.

Cheers

Power Up

Industry Issue
 

Here we go again, another high hour pilot putting !!!! on a low hour CPL, well done PPrune Fan #1.

There is clearly a fundamental problem in the industry when a person spends a bucket load of cash getting to CPL level, yes that is a qualified commercial pilot, and then cannot get any paid work because he/she doesn't actually have enough hours. If there is a helicopter pilot's assocation in the UK that could try and do something about it we would not have the likes of Fan#1 complaining about the newbies desparate to get some hours so they can get a job that actually pays them to fly.

Its not that newby is intentionally trying to lower the pay scales by flying for free he/she needs the hours and how else are they going to get them?.

What we currently have then is a void from 200 hours to 250 hours and more expense to get an FI rating or up to 500 or 1,000 hours. So just what does newby do?

Meanwhile, he or she is out there on their own trying to put into practice all the lessons learnt but probably taking a few short cuts and getting some bad habits.

So why is there no form of emplyment structure for the newby, where they are paid a lower rate but are under supervision of an AOC holder, surely they could do some repositioning work or something similar. Oh no silly me the AOC holder most likely charges someone they are training for the repositioning, hmmm so what chance do they have? Just who is making all the money out there? and who cares about the future of the industry? We are supposed to be professionals, yet right now there is no complete training program available to the masses to get them from an initial trial flight to a paid helicopter pilot job.

Fan #1 instead of bagging out the newbies lobby for change, surely we could all benefit.

Chances of finding work?
 

What Chance or Job would a person who is 26 years old and has a fresh JAA CPL(H) and MEIR(H) with 140 hours in R22 and 20 hours in A109.
This person also holds around 3000 hours fixed wing as a Training Captain on ATR 72 and is FI(A)IRI(A) and FE(A) who wants a change in career!!!

Would it be possible to get work on say a A109 for a charter company or what? How can one get Multi crew heli time? Is the North sea and SAR work the only way to get Multi crew time in the UK heli indistry?

Thanks for advice :ok:

Multi-crew work is obviously your only option with an IR and such low rotary time. SPIFR work will start at around the 1500hr (RW) mark.

But the North Sea operators are no longer your only option. Some of the larger onshore charter or corporate operators (eg PremiAir, Harrods, JCB, Starspeed etc) are now employing co-joes for multi-crew ops. The threshold is normally CPL/IR and around 1000TT. However, in this environment, your low RW time will obviously be offset by your considerable FW time.

As long as 'your face fits', I can't see you struggling to find work.


HTH

I know there are "discounts" in hours for a rotary licence if a fixed wing licence is already held but rotary TT of 160 hours for CPL/IR(H)? Wow, that's going some!!! Is this a hypothetical question?

Cheers

Whirls

Not if (s)he's on an integrated course, Whirls... ;) (110 + 50).

As I said ... it's going some but!!! :}

Cheers

Whirls

It was the bit about being a 26 year old training captain on the ATR72 that impressed me - respect!

It's easy to be on the outside looking in and doling out opinions, but nonetheless it seems to me a very promising (and potentially lucrative?) airline career would be being thrown away. :eek:

If you start flying commercially at 20, getting to Training Captain in 6 years (and ?4000hrs) should be reasonably achievable, I'd have thought. Kudos anyway. :D

If RW doesn't work out (and it's still potentially just as lucrative as either regional airlines or biz jets), I guess that the OP could always go back to the airlines.

Thanks for the advice people!:ok:
Will look into the onshore operators that was mentioned above.
WhirlyGig, a JAA ATPL(A) holder who wants to get a fATPL(H) only needs 105 Hours(H) TT before they can start the 30hr JAA CPL(H) course, then the MEIR(H) is just complete the TR on A109 and 10 Hours IR training and can take the IR skill test then.
Why the change in career! Wants to do helicopter flying for a few years before settling down with family and then settle working for BA/Virgin doing long haul. Only young once!!!!

Again, thanks for advice :ok:

Out of interest, G-HALE, have you got the rotary licence already? It's not 100% clear from your posts...

I think it's all speculative!

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...88#post4119188

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...&postcount=149

4,000 hours since April 2007 is going some, it has to be said - he must have flown about 11 hours every day of the week....:E

yet another c*ck in our midst. Lot of them coming out of the woodwork with the improvement in the Wx? 3k hours, TRI etc etc? What an utter load of sh1te!!