I had already made the comment about insurance requirements and I did say - all other things being equal. I am not doubting your experience but, guessing you come from a military background, things are a little different when operators are looking to recruit civilians.

And surely instructing IS commercial work; it may not be public transport but it IS commercial.

So, can you explain why, with hours,ratings and experience being equal, that an operator would prefer a 27 year old to a 37 year old? They can't seriously imagine that they would get either of them "for life" as an employee!

Cheers

Whirls

..and the answer is/ maybe
 

They would probably offer a lower salary.

This is how it works in every industry ...

A fair point H-R!

Cheers

Whirls

My advice is to use your money to start a bussiness (IT is your expertise) work hard for a few years, and when the money is coming in, complete a PPL and fly for fun. You could even invest into a Helicopter company latter on, then you will get a tax break on your CPL training, and get to do some flying. ;)

Bigmike - the wisest advice I have ever heard on Pprune... :D

That's the way I did it!

Professional heli flying isn't an easy profession to get into it takes money, money and more money.....

My route was PPL(A), PPL(H) some 9 years later, CPL(H) in 2002/2003 (don't remember which!) and will be doing the instructor's course this year. My IT job paid up to the CPL(H) and the flying work covered costs over the two years (base/line/LPC etc.)

Whatever route you take, make sure you get in an environment where you're allowed a little bit of rope but are properly monitored as you progress, and maintain your integrity. If not, it can get very expensive and smelly very quickly if you cover something up (not me, I hasten to add) or get in a situation where your experience is overwhelmed by conditions.

whirlygig
 

Whirlygig.
I did not make the the difference between commercial flying and instructing, read up a few threads to whirlybird, Quote "I'm now getting the impression I might get some commercial flying if I got more ratings, but I'll hit 60 in not that many years, so I'm not sure if it's worth the outlay, or even if I want to"

No, you guessed wrong again, I am not ex military pilot, and you can count on one hand how many civilian cpl(h)'s were in the UK when I started.

RJC is starting out at 37,by the time he gets the experience to be employable as a, for arguements sake, a charter pilot,free lance pilot, police/ems pilot etc, etc he will be way past 37.

Big mike, has hit the nail on the head for RJC's situation,IN MY OPINION.
No I can't explain why operators would prefer 27 over 37, but over the years I have seen a great many 20 something year old low time cv's go into file 13 next to a chief pilots desk.

If someone like RJC is going to invest his hard earned money in our industry, and asks for advice he needs to see the pitfalls before he makes the leap.

Whirlygig, sounds like I hit a nerve, on the instructor comment, was not intentional, but begs me to ask the question, what experience, other than instructing do you have to advise RJC?

Just an observation, not a dig.

RJC, I sincerley hope you make it despite the hurdles stacked against you,
good luck.

Lup, if you'd care to read my profile you will see that there is no raw nerve to hit. I have a PPL and I do not have an instructor's rating.

However, it's just that your advice seems to contradict what so many others have said (over the years) on here with respect to age vs employability. I was curious as to why when it doesn't seem to have been a factor in many other people's choice of career switch.

Cheers

Whirls

whirlygig,I have been too busy flying over the years to post and stay ahead of PPRUNE, and that as I said before includes overseas were I am away from the coffee tents of Ascot etc, better than PPRUNE sometimes.

But I can say that I can't recall meeting any pilot either flying the same roster or around the bizars in the UK who started their career close to 40.

There must be some as I have just spoken to a USA pilot friend of mine, who has met a few out there, mainly flying low paid traffic jobs due to their experience,but the market in the US is much different to the UK.

When I flew out there, the young starters were all going through to instructor level to gain hours to move on to better conditions.
They were paid peanuts and had to buy maps and manuals from the school who employed them.

Maybe the industry will wake up soon, when all the experienced guys start hanging up their flying gloves and discover the huge gap between what experience is left and the low timers waiting for a break.

If or when that happens, I won't be giving RJC the same advise.
By the way don't use a rumour forum to to mould your views on aviation.
RJC did say he had a partner in tow, he will have to take into account Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome, before he starts spending his money.

RJC

1. DO you have access to £60k, (including remotgaging your house if neccessary)

2. Do you have the will to go all the way, despite what everyone else says, friends, family and PPruners

3. Are you prepared to work F***ing hard to achieve it, including uprooting from where you live

Answer a definate yes to all 3 and you'll do fine.

18th Aug 2004 I took my first PPL lesson, now I am CPL/FI with approaching 600 hours and am delighted with my decision. By the way I'm 38.

So get off your ass and decide what you want to do, whatever it is if you want it badly enough you will achieve it, if you don't you'll just be wasting your money.

Good Luck

jemax
 

jemax,

Good questions and very true, and glad you came out the other end with the will to go on, great stuff.

however RJC's original question Quote "What happens next? Would anyone employ me? Consider training me, type conversion etc to small turbine etc? If I signed up with a company for x years, would that help?

I would not be looking to work off-shore, just on shore commercial work. Charter type of stuff I guess.

No mention of flight instructor there, "onshore commercial work charter type"
You may be RJC two years down the line, so the best to answer his direct question.

How much onshore charter have you done, and how many applications so far?, it does not get any more real than you.

Fair point,

Guess it has been about 100 hours onshore commercial/charter the rest instructing, but it's making a resonable living, and I hope it gets better from here as my experience grows.

I'm still very much wet behind the ears, but my point is you'll find a million people who'll just say it's a stupid idea, including my mum! But unless you have access to the resources and really commit it's immaterial cos you won't get through and succeed anyway.

Beats my old PLC desk job every day of the week :)

lup,

In his third post, in response to my post, RJC said
Under the circumstances, it was perfectly reasonable for Whirlygig and I to assume that RJC was considering instructing...along with everything else you can do with a CPL(H). That is why I pointed out that one can follow that route at virtually any age. It was totally relevant to the conversation which was taking place.

I'll never quite understand why people read the first post and appear to skip all the rest, when a thread has already gone to two pages. :ugh:

60,000 GBP (my computer doesnt have a pound symbol)
 

I keep seeing the 60K (GBP) figure mentioned and cant help but wonder why somebody would spend that much on a helicopter licence.

If you were to travel to New Zealand or Australia that amount of money would buy approx 450 - 370 hrs respectively.

New Zealand requires 150 hrs for CPL H which can be reduced by up to 50 hrs (1 hr for every 2 hrs PIC Aeroplane within the previous 12 months). $65000 = 21,385 Pound

Australia requires 105 hrs for CPL H which can be reduced to 70 hrs (yes seventy) if the combined fixed wing course is taken. $50,000A = 20,145 Pound

Find out whats involved in converting back to a British licence. You may be able to do the majority of your hours somewhere else and sit your licence in England.

Worth thinking about.

I think the figure of GBP 60k usually includes the cost of an IR, which is the foot in the door, although no guarantee, to the North Sea co pilot positions. The paper trail of converting an Australian/NZ CPL(H) to JAA is a long and expensive one.:*

tomstheword / pohm1,

£60k is the approximate cost of CPL(H) + FI rating
£70k is the approximate cost of CPL (H) + IR

in my opinion having instructed, done VFR charter/aerial work and North Sea, I would get an FI rating before you try and get an IR, because at least you will able to keep flying as an instructor, build your hours and work towards being employable for VFR charter/aerial work and hopefully get an IR down the line.

if you get a CPL(H) + IR, you are ony realistically employable by 3 companys Bond/Bristow/CHC and if they are not recruiting or if you fail selection, you are not really employable as a commercial pilot and you have no FI rating to get some experience either.

if you want to cover all the options and get a CPL(H) + FI rating + IR, that is going to cost approx £90k and its starting to sound a little expensive, but you would be in a better position. I would not reccomend this though it is just far too much to much to spend in my opinion on your career.

also what people never seem to mention is that an IR in a helicopter is the hardest thing you will ever do and big tough men have been known to suffer a lot of stress, and people do fail it, even if though they have spent £30k extra on it.

to answer the original question what happens after getting a CPL(H), the answer in many cases is "nothing", unless you have worked out what you are doing next.

if anyone is reckless enough to do a basic CPL only with no provision after that, they will surely be disapointed and have a big row with wife/ husband about how they have wasted all the savings / remortgage and possibly moved into the spare room :(

regards

CF

I did my CPL around the same time as Jemax, however I'm based in Ireland and the scene is a little different. I can't answer yes to one of his three criteria - are you willing to move anywhere for a job. However, I have a non flying job that lets me fly part time, and I'm not going to give that up any time soon.
On the IR, I went to a well known FI and IR training school to discuss options, and they discouraged me from doing the IR at this point. (245 hours). 1. Because with my eperience level I would struggle to pass it in the twin, and 2. without a job to go in to, or at least an offer of a job, it's no use. No one except the north sea operators is going to take on a low hour CPL with a basic IR and no IR experience. They also said that it's downright dangerous if the low houred IR pilot does not go into a structured environment to build on the initial training. So I've decided not to go that route at present. I also agree on the comments about the difficulty, this has been emphasised to me many times.
The way to go seems to be FI, but with a school you can build a relationship with that will also progress you in other ways. It's about personality and being in the right place at the right time to take advantage of an opportunity. It does happen.
Edited to say: By build a relationship I mean, possibly employ you as FI afterwards, give you a deal on training and type ratings, possibly positioning work etc.

RJC. This is my two pence worth for you...

At 36 I was going through a mid life crisis, like you, I really wanted to fly for a living. Spent 17 yrs working in London, and wanted a change.

I sold my house, car, motobike, parachute, dog, everything. Moved to the US and worked in PA. I obtained all my qualifications up to CFI. I was very lucky to be able to secure my work visa, then green card to follow. I taught for over 2 yrs, then moved to company in the GOM. Now fly tours in Alaska for the summer, not quite sure what to do after though :rolleyes:

Wouldn't mind working back in the UK to be nearer my family.

I have heard rumours that a larger GOM company may be sponsering visa's due to the lack of pilots around. If that would be the case, you my consider moving to the US, perhaps on a J1 before they take it away, then apply to this company once you are a CFI with 1000hrs. Or at least speak to them about the visa's before you come.
Just my quick thought on the subject

Good luck with whatever you choose :ok:

Post CPL-H issue
 

RJC

I would certainly have done all my research into the various flying establishments, before i started to put £40k+ into getting an CPL-H. I would also advise to only do a normal CPL instead of as frozen ATPL-H, because if you havent got the IR component within 3 years of passing the exams you lose the entitlement and have to resit the 8 or 9 exams, and for what.

Doing an IR before you have a minimum of 500 hours is IMHO a waste of time unless you know someone in any one of the North Sea Companies. There is alot to be said for where you do your training, because certain operators prefer their students to have gone to certain institutions.

Whilst you are going through your CPL-H training, you should probably go modular. This equals potentailly more hours after training and the ability for you to work in IT and train at your own pace, making contacts and getting pally with your flight school. If your flying school is small enough and does some commercial work, you should enquire whilst you are doing your PPL-H and Commercial theory exams to work as ground crew for these companies. This will give you an insight to ramp work.

If the operations dude likes you and you get repeat work, you may get the opportunity to get some supervised ops work when you have qualified. NEVER bite the hand that feeds you and try not to burn any bridges on your tempestous route into helicopter aviation, as this is a very small world and a rumour is all it takes to mess up your career. So from the moment you have your JAR Class1 Medical in your hands, start creating the contacts and speak to people. Be open and welcoming and definately not demanding. Look at what you can give to your future employer and not what your future employer can give you (Type ratings on his bill and not yours etc).

Take skills with you to your future employer. Getting an ADR cert for tanks wouldnt be a bad idea. Some sort of ground handling experience and ops experience is a start. The rest will happen if carefully planned.

MD:D

While we're on the topic of IRs, will the off-shore companies (who appear to be the only folks who ALWAYS require an IR) accept a single-engine IR (i.e. one done in Grandpa Jetranger), or do you have to have a twin IR to be treated as 'having an IR'?

I guess what I asking is considering you need a twin IR to fly offshore, would a company be happy to cover your conversion from single IR to twin IR, or is that a big no-no?

It seems acceptable to complete a Single Engine IR and then get converted by one of the North Sea three to a twin type for their ops.

Since Bristow's are the only ones in the UK with a single engine IR course that's one way to go. I haven't heard of the non-Bristow companies having a problem with Bristow's IR; I don't see why they should, from what I hear it's a good course.

Having said that, cost-wise, the various twin courses around are not much different in price and you come out with a twin rating (the Bristow course does not include a 206 rating).

As I'm looking at these options right now, I do feel rather nervous at putting down so much money simply to be able to apply for a job...I imagine the bank will feel the same way!

BG

Pandalet,

my company have hired plenty of people with single IR's, then they have also hired plenty with twin IR's. and I was lucky enough to be hired with no IR, which they nicely paid for.

but given 2 equal people they will go for the twin IR person, it all depends on who they have got on there list at the time.

BaronG,

you are right to feel nervous as the chance of not being hired is high, your problem however is you are competing against people who will take that risk.

this is not a career where you can look coldly at the figures and justify them to a bank/accountant. the risk/return ratio is to high to be sensible, however most people who persist and are "driven" make it in the end.

in the past like when I joined at the start of the century it was not a neccesity to have an IR as they were paying for them, but it is becoming increasingly more of a standard requirement.

regards

CF

This is all correct, but it's really very simple!

You can't start a career change like this without having finance to back it up with. Be prepared to spend some serious money and lots of hard work if you want a career in aviation. Belive me, there is no easy or cheap way around it.

This is what I know several successful JAA helicopter pilots have done:

1.FAA flight training in the US, with the possibility for getting an Instructor Job over there after and build (hopefully) about a 1000+ flight hr's.

2.Enrolled with a UK ground school for JAA ATPL ground training after.
The JAA CPL-H flight check can in fact be done with a helicopter flight school in Florida.

It is also much cheaper to train in the US and a good way to gain some flight experience. (Which I think is a critical factor for employment in Europe/UK.)

Good Luck!


WingRotor

Very informative discusion, I've probably learnt more spending 10 mins reading this than the past year searching for a similar points.

Unless I'm mistaken, the only civilian route that has really been talked about is the modular route to acheiving the commercial licence, is taking the intergrated approach to much of a risk? Bearing in mind the cost/low flying hours etc? if I went this route would I have to spent X amout extra to acheive additional hours/ratings before empolyers will even consider me?
As I'm young, does that put me in a better or worse situation?

Cheers

Seb

SebW,

I think it is more of a risk, you are commited to doing it all in 1 year at the speed cabair or whoever it is run it, you cannot continue to work full time while this is going on, which means yo should add loss of earnings to the cost,
IMO it is a foolish person who gives up their main source of income to become a helicopter pilot, especially when the modular route can be taken at your own pace.
also remember on integrated route you get only a CPL, you never get a PPL as far as i understand it, so stopping to reflect on things after your PPL is not an option

yes above arguments still apply, you still need to hourbuild to get FI rating or IR etc

i cant see that it makes any difference except you could try and join the military and get all your training for free, I was too old for that option.

regards

CF

Many thanks for the quick reply. Totally agree, I think the best step for me now is to get the PPL and go from there. The main reason I was considering the intergrated route was to spend 100% of my time learning the necessary and not have to worry about my job - but if the likelyhood of employment after that is poor, it'll be better the long route!

Cheers

All,

Many thanks for all the replies, e-mails and PMs. This thread has made for interesting reading. There is some good advice in here, from all sides. I have sat back and taken in what people have said.

The FI stuff is interesting, I will look into that. I spent a few years teaching people to ride motorbikes, at weekends (for those old enough, in the UK, who may remember the old Part 1 and 2 tests and the early days of CBTs). Now, the pay from that just about covered the petrol - but it was done more for the enjoyment than the money. Although, the students didn't often try to kill me on the road...{as a complete aside, when an MZ bike stalls at traffic lights and starts backwards (2 stroke), and the student tries to pull away in a fluster - the face of the driver in the car behind is an amazing sight}

I have friends recently emigrated to NZ and Auz, so perhaps some visits to see them, and a look around down there is on the cards too. If nothing more than looking at a bit of hour building later down the line.

Anyway, I have kicked things off, Class 1 is booked.... without that, I'm stuffed from the start anyway.

What are the job prospects for new pilots??
 

I am looking at doing and CPL course. I've looked around most of the schools, added all the costs up......

It's a lot of money to retrain, but it's my dream job.
I am a bit worried that there are no jobs for new pilots.
I was planning to do my IR as everyone say's it's a must. But I am still only going to have 200 odd hours.

I want to do EMS, but I know it's a few years off.

Are there any new pilots here that can't get jobs.
What other options are there for me work in the US? I don't fancy being an instructor.

Peter :ok:

Dr Peter (head shrinker?),

I'm a long way from being where you are, but I think you probably need to get your head around instructing...a very valuable skill and a way to earn (and I do mean earn) the hours you'll need later on to get into the EMS world. To put a positive spin on instructing, you'll REALLY get to know yourself as a flyer when you instruct...for starters you'll need to be really confident in yourself as an aviator to be confident you can teach others to do it.

Anyway, thats my two cents, bob, sheckles worth...good luck breaking into the industry...hope you find something you like to do...if not, good luck instructing.

HP

Hello (again) Peter,

Further to my post to you in the Wannabes section (don't worry, you're welcome :ugh:), here's a link to the FAQ post that I mentioned:

Older Training FAQ.

I suggest that you take the time to read through the various threads. Most of your questions have already been answered.


I am a bit worried that there are no jobs for new pilots. There are jobs available, you just need to know where to find them. In the UK and the US, most of the entry level jobs are instructing.

I was planning to do my IR as everyone say's it's a must. Who exactly is 'everyone'? Don't confuse the fixed wing world with how things operate in rotary. Only certain jobs in the rotary world require an IR. Few of these jobs are for newbies.

Are there any new pilots here that can't get jobs. Lots and lots and lots.

I don't fancy being an instructor. Good luck to you then. See the above point.


:cool:

I'm looking to do my training at HAI in USA.
If I do a CFI. Can I expect to get paid for teaching or is it just fly for free and build your hours up? What do you need to have 1000 I am guessing.

Where can I go to get twin engine experience even if I have to pay for it.

Yawn. I'm getting bored of this. :ugh: :ugh:

Read the other threads. Many have been there before you. Learn from their experiences.


OUT.

Dr Peter,

I’m afraid you are going to have to do a lot of research as there will be many questions that only you can answer as it’s only you who knows your circumstances and what you want out of life.

However, if you haven’t already downloaded it, I recommend LASORS for UK JAA rules and regs regarding licences and all things aviating. It is a large .pdf file but worth it. Or you can buy it as a book.

First things first – have you flown a helicopter? If not, get a trial lesson – you might find it’s not for you.

Secondly – get a Class 1 medical (CAA website for details). If you can’t get this, your career ain’t gonna happen in the UK.

If you want to work in the States, better have a word with the American embassy with regard to visas.

If you want to fly a twin and are prepared to pay for it, then you can go anywhere you want! In the UK, it would cost about £800 - 1,000 per hour.

Cheers

Whirls

Dr Peter,

My two penn'orth...

You'll find there is a wealth of knowledge on this forum. I have drawn upon it myself having been assisted by some very knowledgeable and experienced individuals who have given their time to assist me and other newbies. It is not a place just to fire off question after question then sit back and wait for others to do the work. Good manners dictate that if folk go out of their way, as they have, to assist you, you might at least have the decency to acknowledge their replies, thank them for their help and then do some of the legwork yourself.

If you are so worried at this early stage about the doom & gloom aspects of flying helicopters professionally then perhaps it's just not for you?

Ok, I'll get back in my box now - I've been working nights and your posts made me grumpy ;)

DBChopper :oh:

dr Peter,

I can't really add much to what others have said - do a search, read old threads, look at all the info that's here already.

However, you should know that this is not an industry for those who want a secure, reliable, wellpaid, pensionable job. You might be lucky and get one of those, but most likely you'll have to do anything that comes along for a few....months, years, who knows. Instructing is paid, and is fun, but if you don't fancy it, don't inflict yourself on the poor students who are paying for you to teach them.

That's about all I can offer right now. You do rather give the impression that this industry isn't for you, though I'm ready to be proved wrong.

Many thanks, DBChopper.

You managed to sum up exactly how I was thinking. :ok:


I just wish that I was as articulate (and as patient) as you sometimes... :{

dr_peter:

FLY FOR FREE? A CFI is a professional pilot and should expect to get paid - people who undervalue their skills keep wages low in this industry.

what jobs Opportunities are there for new pilots
 

Hi All, I'm new to this Forum and i was wondering if anyone could help?. I'm looking to start my PPL in the UK early in the new year, followed by my CPL once i've got the hours in. i'm hoping to be completed in 18 months to 2 years.

As all you pilots out there can appreciate this is not a cheap matter and as i'm looking to pay for this myself i need to be sure there are jobs out there for new pilots. Could anyone tell me what job opportunities
are there for new pilots and what sort of money they pay??

Welcome to the forum.

There's lots of information here: Frequently Asked Questions

You can also use the 'Search' facility to find more.


Heliport

What are the job prospects for new pilots??
 

Hi all, i'm new to this forum and am after for some information. I'm looking to start my PPl early next year and continue on to take my Commercial (CPL) (once i've got the hours in) and I'm allowing myself 18 months to 2 years to achieve both.

The thing is i'm looking to pay for the training myself which i'm sure everyone can appreciate is not cheap. once trained i'll be looking for work and i was wondering if anyone knew what the sort of jobs (UK Based) would be available for new pilots and what sort of money thay would pay ?