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-   -   Autorotation Help? (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/208766-autorotation-help.html)

fhvn4d 29th January 2006 20:25

Autorotation Help?
 
hello fellow heads! I am a flyspeck on the window of becoming a licensed helicopter pilot in the USA. Honestly, im 35 hours into my private rating and everything is going well except for ONE thing. I cant get over the rush of the ground when i am trying to do autos with my instructor. I dont know if its just nerves, fasination, fixation on the ground rushing or what, but im having a dog of a time doing ALLL the movements right... i enter well, establish a good glide and speed. But she says the closer i get to the ground she feels me nudging the collective too early, and while im doing that im not initialting the flare as fast as i can, either taht or im aft cyclicing the hell out of the flare and i balloon. I have done everything else to her satisfaction, including hover autos, quickstop, swp, max t/o and steep. havent done night or pinacle yet but still have enmough time to do that before i hit 40 hours... my goal is to be proficient enough to test out at 50 or less. Its almost a necessity since i have financed this myself and thas all the cash left LOL .... anyone give me any pearls to follow or had a similar prob with the autos, advice would be greatly appreciated ! Brian... Massachusetts USA

Fun Police 29th January 2006 21:34

try to keep your eyes out front and wait to start your flair when the feild/ground starts to flatten out in front of you.
keep your airspeed up to whatever is recommended before the flair as long as you can before you pull back on the cyclic, and keep it straight as possible.
resist pulling pitch until you start to settle unless necesssary to control RRPM.
hope this helps, good luck.

puntosaurus 29th January 2006 22:01

Leaving the collective alone (other than to control rpm) is just a discipline, try sticking your left thumb out so it touches your thigh, so you have an additional cue to follow that you're pulling early.

Judging the flare is a tough one and I can still cock it up on occasions. The only hint I can suggest is flaring in segments and seeing what happens after each burst. That might help develop your feel better than an all or nothing haul back. You can count them off out loud by saying flare 1, flare 2, flare 3. It also means you can make adjustments between each one, pause a little longer if you've overcooked it, or go straight into the next one if you need to be a bit more aggressive.

Hope that helps.

Lama Bear 29th January 2006 23:06

What fun Police said.

As an instructor with students and in my own periods of unsatisfactory performance this is the single most common fault.

If you are having trouble with the flare and termination, if the world seems to be rushing at you, you are probably looking just over the tops of your toes. At somewhere around 150 to 150 feet I mentally say "Vision Out". It is too late to make a major change in the touchdown area so let's just go for a good termination.

With your vision out front the apparent rate of decent is much less (thus less intimidating) and you have many more visual clues for judging altitude, heading control and ground track control.

Two's in 29th January 2006 23:39

You might try getting your instructor to do a couple with her flying and you completely hands off, while you reacquire the correct ground perspective on the way down and ground rush at the bottom. This helps get the Primary long distance view combined with the close in visual cues.

fhvn4d 30th January 2006 02:45

keep the ideas coming everyone... funpolice, you and the instructor hit on something.. i am usually looking directy through my feet like theyre a gunsight, and im fixated on when i can start to see grass, and i think when i do i instinctively start trying to retard the momentum with collective. and if im not doing that, im bouncing between rpm and airspeed indicator. The flares arent bad, i start them too high though.. my instructor is great, shes super paitent with everything. I just want to make these damn things work. so .. i fly a cb300, is it better to be looking out the front upper glass at the world instead of the lower one that im looking trhough... like straight ahead instead of down ... and one last thing.. im deathly afraid of a tailstrike in the flare.... how do i overcome that underlying concern for the weedwhacker back there ???? :o)

NickLappos 30th January 2006 03:01

This is the same problem airplane pilots have in judging flare height for normal landiings, almost all of the anxiety built up is due to a poor understanding of exactly how much altitude is left prior to skid contact. I suggest this technique:

On a flat ramp, stand up and spot the horizon. Then slowly sink down and drop your eye level as you keep looking toward the horizon. Note the "flattening" of the earth as the sight plane gets more and more edge-on. Imagine a rectangle painted on the earth that looks like a perfect box shape from directly above, but begins to look more and more foreshortened, and more like a triangle as you get lower. Keep getting lower until your eyes are about 2 feet from the ground. This "flattening" of the earth is how you judge height, and is the only way to do it. If you spot the ground below you and try to judge its rushing up toward you, you will not be able to tell when to expect contact, and you will undoubtedly pull early (because the jolt of not pulling collective is too horrible to even contemplate).

Now ask your instructor to let you make some running landings that get you closer and closer to the ground, and you predict the EXACT time and height that the skids will touch, literally within 1/4 inch. Do this three times and you will have the height judging confidence to make the correct collective pull.

800 30th January 2006 03:26

As everyone else has said.
If you are still having trouble try this;
You said your entry and descent was ok, so what you need is some sort of reference to tell you when to initiate the flare.
During the descent keep the scan going, do not get tunnel vision or fixate on anything.
1. Set yourself a gate (autospeed correct, aircraft straight, RRPM mid green at say 300ft AGL). Have the aircraft in position at your selected gate height. YOU CHOOSE the height!
2. From this position you are going where you are going (as mentioned before) so eyes outside.
3. If you are still having trouble picturing the initial flare height try and visualise something you know that is the same height, like a hanger or a utility pole. This will help give you a cue to when to commence the flare while you are still looking out at the horizon.
4. As mentioned before talk to yourself and thus talk yourself through it.
5. Whatever happens (even if you have more ground speed than you would like) level the aircraft (re skids) back to the hover position (2ft) prior to ground contact. This should avoid tail strikes.

mikelimapapa 30th January 2006 04:41

Brian,
Where do you practice your autos? Are you going down to a field where you can land anywhere or a runway where there is lots of room, or do you always aim for a specific point;such as a painted spot on a taxiway or the numbers of the runway? I had the same problem when I first started practicing autos, around 100ft agl i would start giving aft cyclic to slow the rate of descent as I saw the ground rushing towards me. The problem with this is when your at proper height to iniate the flare, your airspeed is lower than it should be to regain rrpm. When practicing autos in the pattern we always shoot for painted spots on the taxiway that are easily visible from the air; so to overcome the ground rush, instead of looking straight down past the pedals, I concentrated on keeping the same glide angle all the way down. Use something in the aircraft to judge the angle when you enter, (depending on how tall you are the trim strings usually work), then concentrate on maintaining that the whole way down, while also quickly scaning airspeed and altitude. If the spot moves up, you need to extend it; if it starts moving down then you need to shorten it up with s-turns. If necessary, make sure your altimeter is set to the field elevation and force yourself to maintain your airspeed and dont touch the collective until you see on the altimeter that you are approx 40 ft agl. Since i also did my private in the 300cb, i found the easiest way to rejoin the needles was to roll the throttle to approx 2000rpm just before i began the flare. Then when you pull collective as your leveling out from the flare, the correlator will bring the rpm into the green for you. I found this to be alot easier then trying to pull collective and roll on at the same time. One last tip, i found that the easiest way to maintain your heading during the flare and level out was to use a reference point out in the distance, at least several hundred feet away, a windsock, a taxiway sign, a tree, whatever. Most beginners tend to yaw quite a bit when the power is brought back in, but if your looking at a fixed point instead of the ground moving beneath you, then you naturally make the pedal inputs to compensate without even having to think about it. I hope some of my comments will be helpful and good luck in your training! :ok:

Mike

jc1234 30th January 2006 09:15

Its just practice im about 25 hours into my licence and also struggled with judging the flare plus pulling back on the cyclic to early as the ground rush starts. My instructor can do them without raising the lever on landing, you need about 15kts of wind because the skid landing can be quite fast

the coyote 30th January 2006 10:41

The timing of the flare is a judgement thing that can only come with practise.

The auto descent speed is important to provide enough rotor thrust at the bottom, both during and after the flare, to stop your ROD for the touchdown.

However, the PRIMARY reason for the flare is to reduce your groundspeed for the touchdown. If you are coming down vertically in auto at zero speed, or doing 50Kt with a 50Kt headwind, you don't need to flare for the touchdown do you?

My advice is to commence the flare when the groundspeed appears excessive. As you get nearer the ground, for a constant groundspeed, the PERCEPTION of your groundspeed will increase. (Doing 450KT in a jet at 40,000' the groundspeed seems slow, but do that speed at 50' and it feels fast indeed).

It is like saying to yourself "I am going to hold my speed until the last possible moment before I MUST flare to lose the groundspeed". If I don't start putting the brakes on now, I won't be able to stop in time. Like coming up to the stop sign in your car and saying "not yet, not yet, not yet, NOW I have to start braking or I will not stop in time".

Flare too soon and you will have too much height at the end and probably hit hard. Flare too late and you must accept an excessive touchdown speed or hitting the tail.

Don't fixate on the ground, roll up your sleeves and work fast and scan. Try jugding when to stop for the stop sign by looking at the first bit of road you can see over the bonnet, rather than down the road a bit. Which do you think is easier, and gives you better judgement?

Vertolot 30th January 2006 11:46

Hi,

The autos is not so easy to feel comftable with and they require a lot of training (and also training to stay current on). You have to remember that you still have very limited flight experience ;)

When I was teaching autos to students I used to brake the auto down to 4 steps.

1. The Entry
2. The Glide
3. The Flare
4. Power recovery (in most cases, especially if you train in an R22)


It looks like that you have some problems with the Flare. The flare is not a magic thing that happens during a couple seconds...it is just normal flying and you have to do the flying! I used to brake down the flare in two staps.

Step 1. At about 40 feet (R22) start to do a very gentle flare and level off so the aircraft is flying along the ground at 5-10 feet and then

Step 2. Start to tighten up the flare to get rid of forward speed. When you still have some forward motion (maybe 10 kts in 0 wind condition) start level of the aircraft.

It is very important that you maintain your airspeed during the glide. As you come close to the ground (lets say at about 100 feet) the airpseed wants to bleed of (because the head wind is less close to the ground) so you have to add some forward pressure on the cyclic (pressure only not movement)to maintain proper airspeed). So, until lets say 40 -50 feet maintain airspeed by looking on airpeed indicator).

Try to do a "cyclic flare" ie. so you only use your cyclic during the flare (especially if you fly an R22). To judge your flare you can not look strait down on the spot you are going to, because you will only see "green grass rushing toward you" with a terrible speed. It is therefore important that when you start flaring very gently at about 40 feet start to look well ahead of the intended spot you are going to (maybe 200-300 feet in front of the spot). Then you are ably to judge your flare very precisly so you end up flying along the gtround at about 10 feet. And then (and only then):D start to tighten up your flare to get rid of forward speed.

I had my students very often to write on the paper the autorotation (the 4 steps + 2 steps for the flare ) and then to explain in detail the hole manouvre to me. You can train autos in your mind when you are at home. Just sit down in the sofa, close your eyes and "fly true the hole manouvre in your head" with all the steps, speeds etc.... and it´s free, no charge:= Just be carefull so your naibourgs don't see you doing it:E

Just go with an openmind for the next lesson and ask for a good briefing on the autos with your instructor before practising in the air.

Goooood Luck:ok:

fhvn4d 30th January 2006 11:50

lately autos have all been at the airport and to the grass parallel to the runways. Used to do them in a cranberry bog, but its just as easy to add practice in the pattern this way, and if something DOES go wrong while practicing, everythings right there. all your comments are great! i now also realize my field of view outside is all wrong. instead of looking arround im probably fixated on the ground rush... someone suggested looking for a ref point... like the roof of the hangers... thast about right height.... theyre 20 or so feet tall im sure... and someone said, the flare is for retarding groundspeed... i was always thinking of it as the flare is to stop vertical decent so tyou dont hit! i know it does that also, but im thinking change in attitude (mental) might put it in different perspective and make me think of these a little less hairy. and the ideas about talking it down.. maybe moving my mouth will force me to move my eyes arround more...
Vertolot, i fly a cb300...

Fun Police 30th January 2006 12:12

R22, 300, B47, whatever. the principles are all the same.
if you are doing 180degree autos keep in mind that you have to get the machine around quickly. this is one of the things that i had trouble with when i trained. don't loaf around and you will do fine.
there is some excellent advice in the previous posts.
good luck.

Dolmangar 30th January 2006 15:12

Great thread and info. Normally I just lurk to pick out the great information on this board, and have little to add.
fhvn4d,
I'm at about the same point as you are and have found that I've been doing the same thing (fixating on the ground rush). I'm training in a B47-G2. Sometimes I can pull off a nice smooth recovery to a hover, and other times I can't resist the urge to pull collective and flare too early. It must be that I'm not keeping my eyes up.
Thanks everyone, reading through your explanations and process should really help me out. I’m sure that my instructor has said it before, but reading it and sitting here visualizing it is helping crystallize it in my head.

cyclic flare 30th January 2006 16:03

Dolmanger

Are you aware the stick get a little stiff in the bell 47 when its goes quiet.

it gets a bit tricky unless your rambo

Dolmangar 30th January 2006 18:29


Originally Posted by cyclic flare
Dolmanger
Are you aware the stick get a little stiff in the bell 47 when its goes quiet.
it gets a bit tricky unless your rambo

I am aware. It came up when I started reading more on the system, and I asked where the hydraulics were plumbed into the engine.
I've spent some time with the bypass valve pulled (Rambo is right), and we (instructor and I) did a hydraulics off run on landing a few weeks ago.
When I questioned a full engine off auto with no hydraulics the basic answer seemed to be that either your adrenilline will take over it won't :ok:
At some point I'll probably request a demo autorotation with the bypass pulled to at least get an idea of what I'd be up against.

[email protected] 30th January 2006 21:08

FHvn4d - since you are having trouble judging the correct height to start the flare, get your instructor to fly straight and level at this height at normal auto speed and have a good look at what the world looks like at that height and where, when looking out the front window, the horizon is relative to the windscreen bar or instrument coaming. Then get her to climb and descend through that height to see if you can recognise it purely from external references. Once familiar with the 'picture' at flare height, get her to fly an auto and you tell her when to flare - if you get it right it's your turn.
The only place to look, as others have highlighted, is out the front window so you can accurately control the attitude and the rate of change of that attitude, (you don't drive down the road staring at the hood ornament after all so look well ahead when you fly).
If you can start the flare consistently at the same height then you can try varying the flare to suit the conditions.

fhvn4d 30th January 2006 21:24

this is completely awesome.. this was my first post on this site and the information from that one post has really helped me! from the instructors and the salts of airbeaters who posted a heartfelt thanks! dont stop posting advice on it. to the autovirgins like me, thanks for letting me know im not the only one who cant get past the ground rush. I am going to try to be especially vigilant on the next lesson to look ABOVE the window frame thats above my feet , using the treeline asa refrence.... and im going to try to relax my left arm, thinking of the part that im having trouble with as a two stage finish to an auto..... the flare flare flare, THEN level and collective together . i think i might even ask the instructor to talk to me like its a quickstop .... she usually says "3,2,1 quickstop... and if i start to balloon shes like flare flare flare THEN level level level.

One more question.. is finishing and getting licensed in 45 hours being overzealous???


oh yeah, im in massachusetts.... anyone else in new england usa??

TheFlyingSquirrel 30th January 2006 22:00

Does anybody out there demonstrate backward autos and then turn them into a normal forward auto again ?

Rich Lee 30th January 2006 22:08

fhvn4d,

With no disrespect to anyone with an opinion to the contrary, the autorotative flare and touchdown landing techniques will vary between any two types of helicopters. You could use R-22 techniques to perform an autorotative landing in a CB300 and will probably live, but the touchdown will not be pretty.

There are two broad types of autorotation techniques people are taught in the CB300. Flare and progressive deceleration. I have, as an instructor and an experimental test pilot, done thousands of touchdown autorotations using both techniques in the TH-55, H300A/B/C, and CB300.....many have been during certification H/V testing. I always use a progressive deceleration as opposed to a flare technique because when performed correctly, you will always touchdown with more main rotor RPM - and that is a good thing. The curious thing is that the progressive deceleration technique is the easier of the two methods to perform. I do not know which technique you use, though your comments suggest a flare technique, but the easiest to use is the progressive decelleration technique.

I have learned over the years that the best way to begin autorotation training is with autorotative descents and power recovery at altitude, far above the ground. Constant airspeed and heading descents, changing airspeed descents, turns, max glide, minimum descent and zero airspeed descents to a specified place on the ground. The last thing is autorotative entries from low, medium and high power conditions. Most intitial students feel confident with all these in less than two hours. They can see and hear changes in main rotor RPM. They know how to enter autorotation, maneuver to a point and change airspeed and RPM to extend or shorten a glide.

Then, and only then, I move to the field. I prefer sod or dirt because few actual autorotions happen over a runway. I demonstrate (student follows through) one straight-in with power recovery then have the student do one with a power recovery. I then demonstrate (student follows through) a straight-in with power recovery. I then move immediately to a straight-in touchdown landing with the student following through. I then ask the student to do one with me assisting with the controls and explaining as I nudge them (when necessary) what I am doing and why I am doing it. The very next autorotation will be only the student manipulating the controls (yes, I stay close) and verbal instructions. Then just the student with no assistance. I have discovered this takes another hour of instruction.

The technique is simple once experienced, but difficult to convey in written word. Descend at recommended speed with collective as full down as possible - at high gross weights, high DA's, or incorrect autorotative main rotor pitch settings you may need to raise the collective slightly. The trick is to keep main rotor RPM as high as possible. Start a slow deceleration so as to not exceed RPM. Increase the rate of decel as you near the ground and pull pitch at about 5 feet - pitch pull altitude varies with gross weight, RPM and DA. A very slight forward cyclic might be necessary as you pull pitch. In zero wind this will result in a landing with one to two lengths ground run. In winds of 10 knots or more less than one length can be expected.

The real trick is to conserve main rotor RPM until the very last. Don't increase collective until the very end and use it in one continuous pull (in the throttle detent of course!). This manuever is easier and requires less pilot compensation than a textbook quickstop. There is no ballooning because you are just doing a slow deceleration. There is no worry about milking RPM during the flare because there is only one continuous pitch-pull just above normal hover height. There is no huge longitudinal cyclic requirement because there is no large flare. There is no worry about hitting the stinger because there is no exaggerated flare. :ok:

Fun Police 30th January 2006 22:17

fhvn4d, check your PM's pls.

Heli-Ice 30th January 2006 22:57

TFS

There was an Australian pilot working at Weston airport, just outside Dublin that told me that he had tried backwards auto's himself a few times but I don't think that he demonstrates them?

Cross-eyed 31st January 2006 01:43

Try warming up with a bunch of quickstops just before doing your autos. It will help you focus on allowing the helicopter to start to fall through the flare before leveling and pulling collective.

Cross-eyed 31st January 2006 02:04


Originally Posted by TheFlyingSquirrel
Does anybody out there demonstrate backward autos and then turn them into a normal forward auto again ?

Several years ago, my instructor demo'd one for me at a 700' HOGE on my intro flight. Scared the sh*! out of me.......and I was hooked! I also saw one demo'd in an R22 (I was on the ground, he was at 500') by a brand spankin' new CFI with his very first student. I had just landed and he gave me the "hey watch this" on the radio. Scared the sh*! out of me again. I was sure he was (is?) going to ball it up.

mikelimapapa 31st January 2006 02:09

TFS,

There was an instructor at Heli Adventures named Petter that used to demostrate backwards autos to students, but he recently got a job in the GOM.

fhvn4d 31st January 2006 03:59

ok pardon my naievete, but why in the hell would you put the tail towards the ground first>???? who flies backwards at an altitude that makes an auto recoverable???? honestly???? im new but it seems to me that a backwards autorotation is not only dangerous but , dare i say stoooopid...? am i way off? i know i dont have the time or experience to say bully about it, but thats my thinking.. am i way off?

fhvn4d 31st January 2006 11:54

whats an eol?

Fun Police 31st January 2006 12:09

engine off landing.

fhvn4d 31st January 2006 12:30

thx charles... still getting some of the lingo down... LOL.. all i can say is again... WHY BACKWARDS....
one more question all.. my school does not do full down autos, they dont want to be pranging up their only two birds i guess... is this going to be something for me that i should consider going somewhere else when i go for my commercial rating??? i know im going to have to do full downs then...

TheFlyingSquirrel 31st January 2006 13:24

You wait until you do your FI course - you'll have to do them by yourself ! You'll be really susprised how much the machines can take.

nigelh 31st January 2006 17:49

There is no big deal with a backwards auto, it can be useful if everything goes quiet and you have one small landing site ahead...if you do a 360 you may lose it but if you slow down and reverse keeping your heading all you need to do is to know what height to re enter a forward auto and have the speed for a flare and safe landing. I would therefore suggest that they should be taught...surely keeping your one small landing site in view is a huge benefit and getting the roll out from a tight 360 on track is not easy.! Maybe i am missing something or they would be taught!!

nigelh 31st January 2006 23:16

Why would you get low rpm ? also low rpm would produce more coning would it not ? Only consideration i would have thought is t/r control if aft speed gets too high.

fhvn4d 17th February 2006 00:28

THANK YOU ONE AND ALL
 
i have to thank everyone who posted with suggestions.. i read each and every one, and i think i put all of them to use at one point or another today.. i hadnt flown in two weeks, so i expected to be rusty, but for whatever reason the helo gods shined on me and i did 4 almost PERFECT autos. ALMOST. they were all landable.... so thank you all for your input... it made a world of difference

strickers 17th February 2006 03:52

Autos
 
Rotor & Wing had a very good article a few months back on autos - finishing with flying backwards in the auto. One of those articles I cut out and keep if anyone wants the details PM me.

cl12pv2s 17th February 2006 04:12

Backward auto...


If you guys are talking about flying backwards in autorotation with a bit of height I’m bored
Sorry Mr. Selfish, if this is all just child's play to you, that you don't want to contribute anything usefull, but that's what I'm gonna talk about!

Anyway...

With a 25kt headwind, a lot of altitidue, and your best spot just below your nose, then the 'backward auto' is a very practical method in a 300cb. As already said, a 360 runs the risk of losing the spot completely and disorientation. In fact I did one of these on my private checkride!

It is really only an extension of a vertical autorotoation with a small rearward component..(not more than 5-10kts). Any more than this, and you might find weathervaning kick you round just when you don't want to. It just seems more as you have the wind moving you backwards too.

In fact, rather than straight back, I prefer to do the auto with the spot out of my side window, and have a very slight sideward component to reposition. That way, I have a good view all the way down (no instrument console and pedals obstructing). When I need to, I just use the pedals to turn towards the spot, forward cyclic to regain the speed, and it turns into a normal autorotation.

Whichever method you use, you must absolutely give yourself enough height to regain the speed. Top of the HV diagram is determined based on a hover. But you already have 1500-2000 fpm of descent with this auto. So I always used HV diagram +200 feet minimum (or generally 600')


Flare Height Training

As for training students to judge flare height in a normal auto, I am a believer of the concept of 'skill progression'. I don't see why everyone starts with autos, when the student is not comfortable with descents and rapid descents, descelerations and quickstops. (Just like how instructors chuck 'hover' practice in on day two!)

One method I used was simply to do 'engine-on' 'rapid-descents' with a quick stop at the end. With the 'psychological pressure of an autorotation' absent, we would do the descent with lower and lower collective pitch, and delay the collective pull longer and longer. Eventually, we would be doing an autorotation profile (flat pitch, flare and pull). Then the only thing to do (to make it an autorotation) would be to roll throttle off at the top, and on at the bottom!

cl12pv2s

petitfromage 17th February 2006 04:25

No discredit to your instructor but he/she should be looking at where you look! Im surprised it hasnt been noticed?
It doesnt matter if youre landing a helo or a 747, looking the right place to maxmise the visual cues is essential.
Often, where to look, is not obvious.......so your instructor needs to teach you where and why.

As others have posted you need to get your eyes up to the horizon.
There is a certain 'feel' to where exactly your flare height is, so as has been mentioned, get your instructor to fly down the field at the ideal height so you can start to 'feel' where the ground is.

Lastly, you may find a cadence helps calm the nerves. The more we err, the more the nerves increase and then we get frustrated.
Autos & EOLs are great fun!

So, as you're descending, prior to the flare.....just say to yourself "3.....2.....1......flare"
The 3,2,1 will most likely not be regular at first, it maybe "3......2,1,Flare" but I promise you will find it benefits your judgement and calms any nerves wrt the ground rush!
I promise this very simple technique will work!

One other thing, try as your descending in the glide, stretching out the fingers off your left hand. Please do not let go of the collective, just stretch out the fingers.
I would guess, you'll be surprised at how tight your holding it?
Its a great trick and rediculously effective!

The flare itself is dynamic. It does matter if you've done 20 or 2000, you really dont know how much to flare until you're into it. With experience you'll become better at 'guessing' (with knowledge of weight, wind, density altitude, rrpm etc) but.......the intial cyclic input will always be just "your best guess".
You then of course adjust the attitude to acheive the groundspeed, run-on you desire.

I am very jealous. I know we all remember those days and the joy of learning to fly a helicopter.......Have fun and enjoy it.

vaqueroaero 17th February 2006 05:31

I demonstrate 'backward' autos, but as previously stated it is vital that you have sufficient altitude. (why only with a 25 knot headwind?) It really helps actually in gaining an understanding of sight pictures and setting the correct nose attitude to obtain the correct airspeed for the recovery. I teach in the 300, but have a fair amount of R22 time.
It is extremely important to develop a feel for the aircraft, rather than flying set numbers. Once you can recognise when the pitch of the nose is right to give you the correct airspeed then life will become much easier. Try not to focus too much on the airspeed indicator. Look at the trend of what it is doing and make slight adjustments as required.
One thing that I do as an instructor is to cover up the airspeed indicator with my hand and read out the airspeed as we descend. Therefore there is no point in the student looking inside, because there's nothing to see.
On the entry keep your eyes outside and keep the nose attitude constant, by using cyclic inputs. Don't let it drop as you will reduce your rotor RPM real fast.
Really listen to the transmission. It will tell you what the rotor RPM is doing. If the 'whine' gets louder you are gaining RPM, if it is getting quieter (or the horn comes on in the R22), then you are losing it. Collective inputs are made correspondingly. RPM goes up = collective goes up, RPM going down = collective going down. This becomes much more important when doing 90's and 180's.
Keep a visual lock on your spot. Look where you're going. The more time your eyes are outside, the easier it will become.
As far as flare height goes take great note of Rich Lee's post about the 300. DO NOT TRY AND FLY THE 300 LIKE AN R22!! Start the flare much higher and be more progressive.
Keep at it and it'll click. After a while it becomes a lot of fun trying to hit the same spot consistently from different altitudes and airspeeds.

cl12pv2s 17th February 2006 05:51


(why only with a 25 knot headwind?)
Nope, you misunderstand me...I mentioned 25kts headwind simply to reinforce the usefullness of this procedure...for gaining rearward movement over the ground to reposition for your aircraft. i.e. those conditions are a perfect time to use this kind of advanced auto.

Of course, it can be done at any windspeed!!

I too have used instrument covers to help students 'get a feel' for the aircraft in autos. First time was when I was teaching autos, and the student kept on coming in too slow...after a couple, I realised that the ASI was reading wrong (10kts high), and he was relying on this too much...so the next time I brought the cover!

cl12pv2s

KikoLobo 17th February 2006 06:50

One thing.
 
I noticed you mentioned ballooning... Now i am not an expert on the topic but i did had some major issues controlling RPM at the end of the auto and flaring, and my instructor said this had been made more difficult because of my weight... I was near the top of the limits in RPM and sometimes a bit over them and everytime i flared (i usually don't touch the collective at the flare until i bleed some airspeed) but in my case i balooned and the RPM got way high, and if i pull collective i will baloon even more. So the way i could control RPM was by having the RPM on almost the bottom of the green (WELL WITHIN LIMITS), and when i initiate the flare i don't touch collective, and i baloon a bit. I also come in a bit slower than usual but within limits (ALLWAYS WITHIN POH LIMITS), and at then end when i bleed airspeed, i pull a bit collective to stop forward movement, then level and then cushin.

However my instructor did not noticed this until i ask him to demonstrate this to me again, cause i was having lots of trouble, and when he tried it he went (WWOOOAA) that was unexpected. And we both mastered a techniq that was within limits at all times but mostly refine the timing of my reactions for my weight, and we tried this with different fueling to get a feel for reaction, but mostly in the top of the limits the auto felt very very different than from the lower part... The thing is the flare and balooning with high weights.

I know i will get a lot of rocks here saying "YOU HAVE TO FEEL THE AUTO, INDEPENDANT OF THE WEIGHT" well that's true, but i was just a beginer following instructions from an instructor expecting something to happen, and it did happened but happened completely different from what he was expecting, so he blamed it on me, when it was on the timing... So we fixed this and then experimented with diferent weights (fuel) to get a feel for reactions.

So what i recommend is DO one auto. Then let the instructor do one, and then do one together. And then try one. And so and so.. Its practice...

I think you can make your goal if you stop worring on how fast you need to make the test; You'l be ready sooner than you think...

RELAX...
HAVE FUN....
AND ENJOY.....

And you will make it... I swear...


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