Banner Towing
 

Hi all,

Just wondering if anybody(s) out there have any experience with banner towing.

I was in Akl NZ a while back and saw both H300 and AS350 a/c towing overhead the city/suburbs. Initially blown away as I thought underslung loads a definite no.no above the unsuspecting heads of the innocent public.

Had a rig explained to me as I know a weight is required to keep the line tightish to not ruin the hang(readability) of the important message. Anyway the rig as explained had either water/sand as the ballast and if dropped (pilot finger trouble or line breakage) the rig would invert, spill the ballast and the ballast container(a bit like a bambi bucket) would behave like a parachute. Sounds good, not too sure, but would assume during design the feds would have seen the lot pickled several times to insure it worked as expected (no squashed company ground crew = a big tick).

The rig had a main line down to the ballast, plus a secondary line spliced into the main with a number of short lines linking the two in a semi parallel arangement. The secondary line and connections were to take the "curve" out of the primary so the banner leading edge started as straight as possible.

The H300 banners were a decent size and very readable from 1500'AGL(eyeballometer), the AS350 jobbies were HUGE.

Appreciate any info on design, operation and any experience with CAA, FAA, or CASA in certification of banner ops.

Cheers & fly Safe
Hone

<img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

The thought of that lot wrapped around the tail rotor.

No thanks !!!

I have seen the big Royal Navy Helis do this in the past , but never any civvie one's, sound a tad riskkkeee!
My Regards <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

Hi all,

Yeah have to agree sounds risky, but that pretty much sums up all external sling loads.

Watched the H300 setup, normal Veritcal ref style initial pickup (ground crew sorting lines, banner so clean hang) then a normal slingload transition from the hover.

Lines were approx 150-200' and ballast kept the lot hanging under the a/c. Transition to fwd flt saw the banner start to stream. Looked fairly straight forward to me and having done a decent amount of underslung loads recognize the 6 P's play an important part in reducing the gear into tail rotor scenario.

Seen banners towed in up to 20kts under the H300 can only assume the banner didn't affect controllability as the pilot carried on chugging away. Have only seen banner tows by civvie a/c as in NZ the forces aren't allowed to have any fun (hence the removal of toys + allowaces).

Any input from the WWW?

Cheers & Fly Safe
Hone

PS: The 6 P's ????


Proper,Pre-flight, Planning, Prevents, P!sspoor, Performance. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[ 14 January 2002: Message edited by: Hone22 ]</p>

We have been flying flags for &gt;10years, although only over water. One operator has approval for an overland system in Australia.

Largest that I have flown was about 35,000 sq ft. The BK was hard pushed to manage, cruise at 25kts was OK until flying back into a 12 knot headwind!

Obviously all done on a very long line, sometimes up to 300ft to the weights. As mentioned, flags are cut on a bias so that at the spec. speed the curve on the leading edge leaves the rest of the flag 'square', and able to be recognised. The whole rig has to be flown off the ground, describing an arc around the weight until it, too, is off the groud. Similar technique for landing, the flag must also be kept out of the downwash during TO and landing.

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/...17_gp_flag.jpg

Hi John,

A BK hard pressed for 25kts, now i've heard it all. I guess i'll have to reconsider my wishlist for next crissy :)

Thanx for the input John, could you pls elaborate on the overwater/land approval. My understanding is the overwater towing you carry out needs no official nod as the load/sling doesn't pass over public land/heads/etc (or am i completly wrong here?) The overland I can understand would have to go through channels (or is that enter channels never to be seen again) what co. has the Australian approval?

Hope you're having time off, feet up, hot grub and somit cool to finish up.

cheers & fly safe
Hone

Flag flying has been a (political) hot potato since a certain Labour pollie got terribly upset when a flag was towed past his BBQ at Kirribilli House, around Sydney Harbour. Upshot is that CASA decreed Sydney Harbour to be a 'populous area', thereby requiring special permission to fly a flag!

The rest of the country isn't quite so bad, except that the interpretation of flag flying became a further moot point, since any sensible operator approached it as an underslung load job (as you would....). For various reasons, a legal interpretation came out of Canberra to refute this, and it is now considered to be Banner Towing, thus requiring a specfic approval on an AOC, and an Ops Manual supplement.

As a sling load operation, it was (and is) approached along the lines that a load must not be flown over people or property such that the dropping of a load could cause injury or damage on the ground. Hence the flying of flags overwater, following a beach where maximum exposure can be gained.

A Sydney operator has spent a lot of time and effort into developing a system very similar to that first described, whereby the flag has been approved by CASA to be flown over land, and thus over built up areas. The why's and wherefore's of the operation are not something that I can comment upon as there are a number of differing views from Australian operators, none of which I wish to be aligned with. As an approved operation, it appears very successful.

A number of factors often appear to be ommitted when considering flags to be flown, the major one (IMHO) being the drag of the material. Whilst the rig may only weigh a few hundred kilos, the wind drag of a flag is well documented (reference library will help) and can reach 1,000's of kg, depending on wind strength, thus creating either a breaking strain upon the flagpole, or exceeding the hook weight of the helicopter towing the beast. Hence the 25-30kt limit for most flag flying, above which the drag exceeds the hook capability.

I have also flown multiple flags, with 3-4 flags stacked above each other. Very heavy weights required to keep the line straightish, and a rad alt would have been quite useful when GTV9 advised me that the bottom weight was actually skipping over the waves :) :) Last AirShow DownUnder I flew three flags at night, equally interesting experience <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

As for time off, w're now into day 22 of the NSW fires, and current estimate is another couple of weeks before we wrap it up. 10+ hours a day almost every day, we're beginning to wish it was over. Current drops from the BK are &gt;2500 since the start of fires, so we've put &gt;2,000,000 litres from one little BK, some of which actually hit the flames <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> The Victorian loan aircraft are now wending their way back across the border, but all pilots and operators are undoubtedly going to be very short for a month or two when crews have to catch up on duty and flight hour dispensations. The RAN also returned to their homes today, further indication that we're in the mopping up stage.

(Edited to sort out grammar & spelling. Too long a day on the fires!!!)

[ 14 January 2002: Message edited by: John Eacott ]</p>

Vfrpilotpb said: "I have seen the big Royal Navy Helis do this in the past , but never any civvie one's, sound a tad riskkkeee!"

Sorry to hog the thread, but I have an air to air photo I took over Leeds in (about) 1971, where we flew a White Ensign and a Leeds flag under a couple of Wessex (Wessie??). No idea what we used as weights, or how the concept came about or was tested, but there is certainly nothing new under the sun :) :)

Good Morning John,

It was a Wessex that I observed doing this about the early 70's I wonder , it could have been you, that Chequered flag seems a litte to big to run up my house pole, it must weigh quitea bit as well as the drag factor, good picci though.
My Regards :)

The towing over populated areas is conducted using a certified and patented system designed by an Australian operator, similar to that Hone described above. I dont know who the operator is but I believe they fly BK117s on the fires. Maybe John Eacott knows?

Banner Towing
 

Just curious as to what it takes to be able to do this. Yesterday, Sunday 17 April, there was a huge blue commercial advertisment, about the largest airborne banner I've ever seen, being dragged across Central/East London by a red helicopter for about 2 hours continuously, from 1700 to 1900 local, at I'm estimating 2,000 feet.

Now not being a rotary man I don't know how the regs are different for them. But I imagine if I request to fly myself single-engined in Class A airspace across a fully built up area tying up Thames Radar and the London City departures for this length of time there might be a few words said.

I know if he gets an engine failure he can auto-rotate down or manage to get clear if he is twin-engined, but I presume he would have to drop the banner in such circumstances. And as I said, it was huge.

I saw the same thing yesterday but I thought there were two helicopters towing the same banner.

TSP

Hmm - think I saw the same setup over St. Albans/Watford area at the backend of last week, about 18:00 on Friday 15th IIRC.

As well as the airspace & conflict issues I was really intrigued by the structure - I couldn't work out how a single aircraft was supporting what appearerd to be a rectangular banner (rather than the more usual streamer-type arrangement)

Rgds

IHF

I did not see this but when I have seen helis towing a banner, there is a drop wire that has a weight at the base, this stabilises the wire to the vertical and allows the banner to stream. I have seen military choppers do this at displays with the flag/colours of the regiment.

The banner system was developed in Australia and is currently flying all over the world. I am sure you are going to see alot more of these. Very easy to fly and extremely easy on the aircraft. I am sure airspace and confilct issues are not too great as you cannot do more than 30 - 40 kts with the banner. And being 12000 sq feet in size you are not too hard to miss. Safe as houses.

That wasn't us, but someone borrowed our machine. The banner was 25000 sq feet - could just about manage 20 kts

Phil

If anyone wants more info Cabair helicopters are the ones doing the flying or at least trying too.............

I think it was an R44.

I saw a blue 206

Skylark Promotions have developed an overland system for flag flying, circumventing the sling load requirement to avoid overflying people/property. They are marketing world wide, not sure of the web site since the Skylark one is down. Patent rights on the system, which is jettisonable, but the setup has been demonstrated in a full auto to touch down with the flag attached.

Normally a JetRanger will drag up to 12-15,000 sq ft, up to 40 kias. Larger flags need larger airframes, biggest I've dragged around was just under 40,000 sq ft, with a BK117. I'd be very careful about pulling a flag larger than the helicopter's capability, apart from undue stress, the tendency to pitch toward the cyclic limit will spoil your day!

Not much weight, but lots of drag. The cut of the flag is done to allow for the correct curve in the leading edge, so that the rest of the flag flies straight and the logo is legible. Weight at the bottom of the flag to stabilise, the line can be 1-200ft top to bottom.

If there are any operators interested in doing this type of flying in Europe and North America please PM me and I can put you in touch with the ops Manager. Not the most exciting flying but good hours and good rates.

Paco,

If you allowed a B206 to drag 25,000 sq ft, I'd seriously suggest having the poor thing inspected :( No wonder it only managed 20kts, the drag on the hook and airframe would have been way over limits.

The banner was towed by one heli G-OHMS (AS355, orange) operated (for this job) by CABAIR HELICOPTERS. The second helicopter was G-CHUM (R-44, blue and silver) just watching for a while as this was only the second time an AS-355 has been used to tow the banner it has previously been towed by a bell 206.

The banner is 25000 sq ft.

The operating speed is 30-40 kt, the banner displays best when the helicopter has a descent rate of approx 100-200 ft/min.

Quite an impressive sight, a great advertisement for both the sponsor and helicopters. I personally hope we see much more of this sort of thing .both in the U.K and worldwide.

John - as the man says, it was a 355 - our 206s are good in a tight spot but not that good! :)

I was misinformed about the size - sorry

phil

Paco,

I guess it was 12,500 (125,000 sounds way too grand!), which would be manageable in a 206, and easy for the 355. The cut and manufature of the flag makes an enormous difference to the drag, and the way it flies: one local maker creates a product that needs 2/3rds the power that a competitor's flag does, same size and helicopter!


BK117 and a 38,000 sq ft flag. Absolute PITA to fly, 35kias and the helicopter wanted to oscillate around the forward cargo hook points:

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/...0GP%20flag.jpg



Two of the JetRanger with a c10,000 sq ft flag with the overland rig:

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/...20flag%203.jpg

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/...20flag%204.jpg

Chinese whispers I love it.

Our company did the job on behalf of Cabair with my boss flying it. The aircraft was in fact a 355 (G-OHMS) borrowed kindly from Paco.

The air speed limit was 20 Knots and in fact registered 0 for the entire flight. The flag was 25,000 sq ft though plans are in hand for a 100,000 sq ft flag.

The flag is weighted with 100 Kg of fine sand. In the event of a problem the flag is dropped and during this procedure the sand is released from its container and blows away on the wind causing no problems. The flag as stated streams and comes down as described.

It had also been flown twice for the FA cup matches in Cardiff on the Saturday and that Sunday morning.

Yes it is obviously fully approved by the CAA and all permissions granted. After all would be silly to think no one would notice us, that being the point of the advert. Oh and for anyone interested it is simply mounted by a conventional hook system as used on the 355 for normal underslung work.

Cheers
Banjo (and thanks again for the aircraft Paco, I'll get those video clips for you this week)

Ahhhh! Saw it in the distance from outside East Croydon Station and wondered what the hell it was - then went into the Porter and Sorter (pub) and, for reasons I cannot divulge, promptly forgot about it! Mystery solved...

Thanks folks.

So what did the flag thing say (after all that)??

h-r

ohhh Banjo, if they were videos of the banner towing, you don't fancy putting them on't net for us mere mortals do you?? Please, pretty please.

Sorry guys but we did not bother to video it, sure someone will have though.

It said - If you ae reading this you are too close! :)

Phil

Banner towing with heli's
 

Any of you have experience with towing banners with a helicopter? what did you have to do to get the rating for it? I know it's not a JAR-FCL rating and would be a national one, so any information about how the various countries apply it would be greatly appreciated.

I know it's being done in some places. I tried to google it but didn't find any decent info (in fact none!), so I turn to you guys.

Thanks!

Westy

I do believe John Eacott is "The Man" to talk too ....

Cheers :p

In Australia it is a function of "Specialised Operations" that must be included as Part D of a company's operations manual.

The pilot requires a sling endorsement on their endorsement to be able to carry out the procedure.

UK - sorry. A bit unsure of what the CAA requires. No doubt it is completely over the top like all their other requirements.

Speak to Rod wood who is cheif pilot for cabair helicopters who do all the helicopter flag flying in the UK.

thanks guys, but do you have any contact address or email? (or pprune nick :} ?)

I myself have a tow rating for fixed-wing (not for banner, just for getting those gliders up there...) but would the same required training be suffice for a heli? is it tricky with heli's? does the CAA or other authority stamp it in your licence?

question over question... sorry... :ugh:

Westy

P.S. no, I don't want to do it, but I know someone who does....

The email address for Cabair Heles is below. It will probably go through to their ops, but I am sure they will pass it on. Incidentally, there are 1 or 2 photos of their banner towing on their website too

[email protected]

Cabair
 

Rod Wood, Marion or Ian Burningham are the people to speak to, have worked with them before on the underslugng banner stuff. I think it was developed in Australia (very clever bit of kit).

0208 953 4411

You will find John Eacott here under the username "John Eacott"

It seems WestWind is looking for a bit of a discussion on heli banner tow flying. I too would be interested in hearing from those whom have experience, if you wouldn't mind continuing the thread outside PMs.

What equipment is preferred, is it particularly difficult, what are some of the pitfalls, how does the market compare to fixed-wing banner tow, etc.?