Well, a lot depends on the type of longlining - you have operational longlining, which just about any competent pilot can do with a little training and planning, there's precision longlining, which pretty much means what it says, and there's production longlining, which is like poetry in motion when done properly and takes at least a week to get into before you can be productive.

For the basics, you don't even need to have your head out of the door too much - set your altimeter to 0, when you come up to the length of the line expect it to get taut, when it does, keep going up until you cleared the height of the obstacles you checked beforehand and away you go. Just make sure you have a good margin of power, 'cos you're doing a towering takeoff. At this stage you might want to stick your head out to check the load is off the ground and maybe guide it around a couple of trees (or not nearly hit a hovering eagle up the *rse as I nearly once did :)), but it's not essential.

Coming back to the ground is the interesting bit, and you should always have the load moving, even if it is only up or down. Again, you know the height of the obstacles, and the landing pad, so you're using your altimeter again, and you should aim to get the load going slightly in front of you so the effect is that it's pulling you toward the spot, albeit slowly.

You can line yourself up over the landing spot in general by using a marker in front and one to the side - only in the later stages do you need your head out for more precise positioning, and even then just a quick look.

If you fly crabbed off, the sideways presentation of the fuselage will help slow you down, as will use of the collective only, as used in mountains. Particularly important is to coordinate the controls together just before you plonk the load on the ground, especially in a 350/355. If you use collective, then pedals, you will get a swing immediately. Keep that nose straight!

Longlining isn't rocket science, but, like piano playing, the essence is in the practice, not so much the method, and it is something you need to keep current on.

The most satisfying bit to me is getting the empty hook right next to the rigger's hand!

Phil

Phil,

I settle for getting the whole line and helicopter back to the landing....but I will settle for anywhere in the same county.

Poetry in motion ....I am not.....it is an art....not a science.

We use long lines / vertical reference with remote hook on a 500. Normally use 100 ft or 50 ft depending upon job. Got some good pix on my website www.ahhelicopters.co.uk look under loadlifting.PACO you might recognise the feature - not too far from Bristol !

STAYING ALIVE
 

Thank God for 170’!!

With his CV maybe someone will listen, and stay alive as a result. I endorse everything he said with regard to VR long lining; in SPADES!!

I would add only two things.

1. You MUST have your head out of the door / in the bubble on every approach from at least 100ft hook height above the ground/ treetops…or sooner or later you will get yourself KILLED.

2. If you are a long line pilot, and you are carrying passengers, every time you come up, look out the bubble/door and say…I DON’T have a line on… or sooner or later you will get yourself KILLED.

Long lining is the most satisfying helicopter flying you can do. When you put the empty hook in the ground crew’s hand at the end of the approach it feels wonderful..anything else and you know that next time you must do better.

There's a VR pilot talking!

You can tell when a guy has ridden in a crummy or two....tossing beer cans out the window and spitting tobacco juice on the floor.

"170"

You've convinced me. The jobs all yours.

Well posted 170', that was a very entertaining, accurate and honest rendition.
There's longline pilots and then there's the true production longline pilots.
:ok: :ok:

Good post 170', and all points taken, but your instruments and all pieces of information are there to be used. I certainly don't agree that you will kill yourself if you use the altimeter. Sure, you can reduce its importance in your scan once you get proficient, but when you're learning it is a very useful tool.

I always disconnect the line (and cable) when I land and connect it again before taking off.

Hidden Agenda - it's nice to have your head out if you can, but you can't in an Astar (I know you know that, but some here don't), hence the suggestion of not looking out. By the time I got to an official course (Remote Helis), that's the way I was taught. In a country where they don't have a hole in the floor, so there's no point in having the doors off, like UK, it works fine. Again, I don't think it will KILL you - I'm still here. It all depends on you buying into the rush and panic from the guys on the ground.

Now, I know a few readers are itching to try this, but in the spirit of helping you not to kill yourselves, as there's nobody here can stop you, here's the Northern Mountain starting longline course (i.e. how to get going with no training at all - I got this from an experienced longliner):

Get into a high hover at about the length of a line, without a line attached, and practice spot turns with your head out of the door, keeping the belly hook over the target (it is behind you!). Try a bit of ascending and descending as well, but this is probably best done with a line on, which you can use as a reference. Watch out for the left drift in a 206.

Next, get used to landing and taking off by looking at the back of your skid, so you avoid the transition from vertical to horizontal reference (if you do have to transition, do it as slowly as possible, from vertical to lateral to horizontal, and vice versa). Maybe do a circuit or two, as well. This also helps you if the engine stops, with no time to start looking horizontally - just moving your focus from the load to the instruments, or the other way round, takes about two seconds each way, let alone reorganising your whole body.

Next, graduate to a line with a lightly loaded cargo net, followed by a heavier one, finally working up to an unloaded hook. You will find that, up to a point, the heavier the load is, the easier longlining is to do.

One last thing - get used to the sound of a 206L gearbox at 100%!

Phil

I think that the AS350 with the floor window is one of the most comfortable platforms for Vertical reference work. I admit when I first started out I hated that window and thaught I would never get a handle on it, but after a few hundred hours and the odd scare I think I can swing with the best of them. I have to say for production line work it is probably my favourite. Nothing like a nice warm cabin on a -30 day. No back ache and room to move. I guess it comes down to "each to thier own" but for me its 130ft all the way.

Have you tried a 407 with a bubble window? Now that's a comfortable Intermediate for VR work. All that you need for power info is one single "check instrument" light mounted outside and you have all your power parameters covered.

If you're on seismic, I believe that you could be one of the best 350 VR guys, but the facts are...most average joes who try it, never get good with the pacman window. They don't do enough and only get by.

I also agree, go big or go home, the longer line the better in a 350, or for that matter any aircraft. I was at 9,500' all day yesterday, not a tree in sight, but still used a 100', just because it makes the job go faster, safer and easier.

What was it some guy said....when you pick up....look outside and tell yourself about the longline....or words to that effect? Must be the Hamms you quaffed getting yer tape out of the boot!

Hey 170', no problem, your post was a good one! As long as we all get to the same place, who cares how we get there? Can I use the bones of it on my CRM courses? People seem fascinated about how the other half live, and tales like yours go down well!

Best of luck with that medic...

Phil

Hi Y'all,

407 - No VR with the 407 as yet. I am endorsed and look forward to the day, but I always had trouble with the Longranger and Jetranger bubble. ( Tall man syndrome) Yes I am from the siesmic world and totally agree. The more you do it the better you get. Intersting to hear all the methods out there. Some seem bizzare but as I said each to thier own.

Keep Proving Me Wrong!
 

Hi Paco,

Thanks for the feedback!

Just two points:

1. I did say “sooner or later”, and
2. I will be the happiest guy around if you can continue to prove me wrong.

Safety First, All Day, Every Day!

HA

Paco
 

Paco

Sent you two PM's...let me know if you need a resend...

regards...

170'

Got them thanks!

Hidden Agenda - you're right - I didn't read your post properly!

phil

Flying the long line
 

Yeah but what is it?

Can someone please enlighten me as to what the long line is and in what applications would it be used.

In various job adverts 'long line experience' is often quoted.
How would you go about getting experience?

So many questions yet so little time.

Answers on the back of a postcard please, first one out of the bag is the winner.

H.

150-200 feet of line with a remote cargo hook....used for logging, construction work...fire buckets...Short Haulling people....cargo haulling....into small holes surrounded by tall obstacles. All done vertical reference...leaning out and looking down.

Cheers SASless,
bloody obvious once you know I suppose.

H.

When is a line a "long" line?
 

How long is a piece of string? I've gone cross eyed searching the regs for a description of a "long" line when relating to external loads. When operators ask for longline experience can I say yes if I've used a 100ft line?

On a similar problem of information shortage, my research indicates that with an Ag rating, low level & mustering experience combined with a sling approval I can latch on to a bambi bucket & start flying the fire line. It doesn't take too many brain cells to work out that this would not be wise, so if the regs are silent what is the industry/insurance company standard? Standing by for an inundation of wisdom.

Generally speaking if someone is asking for "long-line' experience or proficiency, they're expecting at least a 100ft line with your head out the door/window. Multi crew line work doesn't really cut it.

Some work can be done on a 50ft line, but mostly 100, 120, 130, 150ft is considered "vertical reference long-lining." At least here in Canada.

RH

I agree with remote hook. Operators are talking about vertical reference operations, not a specific long-line length.

Typical long-lines are in the 100-250 foot length, dependent upon the requirements of the job.

The individual operator will be the one determining your competence in long-line operations, for production type operations. In fire fighting operations, you may be required to define your experience in this type of operation, in addition to demonstrating your proficiency to a pilot inspector, prior to being approved for operations.

It all depends where you go, and who you ask!:ugh:

Heliduck,

As far as I am aware you can't hook straight into that. Last time I looked it up it said that you have to have 40hrs of Air attack on fires to fly the bucket, and mustering ag and low level wont do. I also think you need a 100hrs on type to fight fires and a bucket endorsement with some duel fire training.....but this was a while ago i looked up those regs. You will find the government are the controlling hand it the specific requirements in regards to fires...

roundwego the CAP document you was refering to is Civil Aviation Publication CAP426 Helicopter External Load Operations.
So gents and ladies who in the UK actually does longline operations?

MCA is the local expert at the moment.
He'll show you poms a thing or three... :ok:

Sling Loading???
 

Can some of you guys help me...

I am looking at getting approval to do under-slung load work in the UK. What do I have to do to be able to do it and is there any restrictions on what helicopter types can be used?

Cheers guys,

TiP:hmm:

Approval? No such thing in UK - just an AOC, but under JAR OPs that is aerial work.

Phil

Let's see...

EC 120 empty: 1036kg
Pilot 94kg
Fuel 1.5 hrs 132kg
Bambi 50kg

total: 1312kg

MAUW 1715kg

Leaves for water 403kg

So that would lead to the 96gal or 395 kg model.
Fires are hot...
Are you going to push that 120 that hard? Or will it be for training only?

Cheers

Sorry look here: http://www.sei-ind.com/temp/20061151079/BB-TV.pdf

Glasses or contacts for longlining?
 

Age is slowly catching up to me and I have started to wear a contact in one eye. I can fly without the bloody thing but it reduces the eye fatigue.

My issue is with longline op's. I am struggling with the what seems to be the contact drying in the slipstream and causing a blurring of vision and trouble with depth perception as a result. Trying to hold a load steady with one eye shut at 200ft or blinking madly is starting to wear a bit thin.

Does anyone else out there working longlines (without the door on) and using contacts or glasses have any advice to what works the best and what they prefer to wear?

I don't do this kind of thing for a living, but I (a specs/contacts wearer) did ride motorbikes and a decent pair of goggles (with ventilation but no draughts) is a wonderful thing. If you're wearing a helmet, is there a visor that fits on that?

You need longsighted glasses for longlining and short sighted glasses for short haul:p

I had the same problem till I switched lens type. See you optician, (not the cheap eye places---they wont carry a broad selection), and explain whats happening and ask for different lenses to try, (they only cost pennies). I don't have my case with me---but I believe they are "hydro....something".

Cheers Gordy, I will look into that ASAP. Safe flying :)

OK just got home---I now use "Biomedics 55 Premier" by Ocular Sceinces Inc out or San Francisco---never had a problem with them.
Good luck

Come on Steve......Wake up a bit. Its that Tequilla shot glass thats stuck in your eye thats blurring your vision. Take it out and replace and the other with Jagermeister shot glasses.........You may not see real good, but you wont be worried either......

Steve 76
 

I haven't tried LL with contacts but find it is no real problem with glasses. If you are using biofocals then have them switch the near sighted portion of the glass to the top, this illiminates the need to continually move your head up and down and the DP problem will go away. Progressive lenses are not a good idea for LL either.
Hope this helps.

http://www.websoft-solutions.net/photos/CS939-2.jpg

found these do the trick

http://www.websoft-solutions.net/saf...ewear_s/76.htm

Never had a problem with my contacts when I was wearing them doing any king of flying. You might need a different kind.

I find glasses don't give you the same periferal vision without having to move your head... my 2 cents.

Fly safe my mate!!! :ok:

A long liner's question...
 

When undertaking long lining operations, and a serious swing starts to develop with the load, what's the best way of getting out of it ?:uhoh:

Ditch the load or land the load on the ground and start again..:suspect: