Fear of heights?
 

I don’t like flying high in a helicopter. Don’t feel comfortable with it. Anything above 3000 feet gives me the willies. I’ve got no such problem with fixed-wing… just helicopters.. .I thought it was just me, until I read the following in a book about Stanley Hiller. It describes an altitude record set by Terry Clark, who flew a Hiller 12E to 27,500 feet in 1983. It says:. .‘There is an odd phenomenon in helicopter flight whereby the floor beneath one’s feet appears to shrink as one climbs higher. Five miles up, Clark’s perch offered little more psychological support than a postage stamp. He later characterized this unusual flight as “harder than any mission I flew in Vietnam”.. .Is this a recognised phenomenon? How many people feel the same way?

As a candidate at Ft. Wolters, I took a Bell OH-13 to 12,000 feet, doors off in the summer, and was so scared as the aircraft shrank that I stopped climbing purely from fright, gently autorotated back down. I felt as if I was on a tight-rope, and could flip over if anything upset me! The open door out my left shoulder was awesome.

Since then, no problem, been to 20000 several times.

Maybe it's because from 12,000 ft you'll have several minutes to know about it when the blades fall off, or the main trannie' fails? I do find that the larger the aircraft, the better off I feel at altitude.

Scattercat,

The fear was not based on anything so reasonable. I was too dumb to think that hard about it!

Speaking as a pax, I dont feel comfortable flying high (AGL) in a chopper either, unless I'm occupied with track/balance equipment or t/shooting some sort of fault thus keeping me distracted from dwelling on it.. .If the helo has little or no airspeed at altitude then I start to sweat, no matter what I'm doing.

The reasons for the scary sensation must be to do with some sort of yet un-named phobia maybe?

Interesting question. I have come across a few pilots, 10000H+ that have the same sensation. I must admit that 1000H+ later mainly flown 500' to 2000', I am starting to feel a little uneasy climbing above 3000'. Down under, we fly with all doors removed due to the heat factor in the cabin. Could it be an influencing factor? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

What an interesting thread!

I too dislike altitude in helis. Possibly because of a rational fear of Cessna enemas instilled by my teachers, bless 'em.

Doors off, well sort of alright. But very high in a heli is not my very favorite feeling, particularly if it's a CAVU day.

Possibly it's the changed horizon cue that's disturbing. Curved and lower than usual sort of thing.

Then again if the weather is less than perfect I'm perfectly comfy.

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

How things change. The 'height climb' to 10,000ft in a Whirlie 7 was a major exercise during wings training, and took 30 minutes each way, parachute and all. I swear the instructor was more nervous than the stude, but after a quick demo of retreating blade stall (actually a surreptitious kick at the base of the cyclic by the instructor, no way was he going anywhere near such a condition <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> ) and a long auto down, we tried never to go above 200' agl for the rest of the time in the Andrew.

These days, cruise at 7-10k is commonplace, and all my winter ops are 7-8000, operating from 6000' amsl pads. Doors off ops. are one of my favourites, swanning along with the best view in town (and a decent heater in winter....)

Nervous of heights? Don't look down <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[ 23 January 2002: Message edited by: John Eacott ]</p>

Two years ago I took a nearly new R22 up to 6000 Ft, not far from the lake District in the UK, the view was stunning and very different from all those training flights,most of the clouds were in the wrong place, and it had a very "erie" (spelling) feeling about it, and funny thing is it seemed much quieter, after a long gentle descent I felt much more at home around the 2000/1500ft area, not been there since!!

t'aint natural, I have developed the same snag. In the past, I had no problem at 10K+, as a matter of fact in Asia I would go up there routinely to escape the 35ºC heat. Nowadays, I just can't do it anymore, and I know a few guys who are the same way. It doesn’t seem to bother me IFR for some reason, only when I look outside. Funny thing is I could spend all day with the door off, hanging out and looking down from 200’. I’m sure that would hurt just as much!

I had a theory that because I had spent so much time looking straight down from the end of a 100-200' string doing precision work, that my butt had become hypersensitive to very small aircraft movements. At altitude, with very little visual reference, I was feeling the ship move, but my eyes weren’t seeing it. I don’t fly much anymore, so I never really dug deep to get an answer.

The lower the better for me too, Ive been to 10000 ft on engine condition checks and IFR flights. IFR no worries, swanning around at slower speeds is altogether different, didn't particularly like it.

Ive had some fixed wing types absolutely wrapped with fear when flying low, they hate it, I love it.

I've noticed the floor shrinking too.... .Sure is nice to have some sky between me and the lumpy stuff.. .Secondary observation-If I'm high for speed or fuel considerations, I'm fine. If I'm up there to improve forced landing chances, it's scary-even at night when I can't see the emptiness beneath me...

T'aint natural et al. .I reckon that this is pretty widespread - certainly used to have the same problem ... above three HUNDRED ft, never mind 3 thousand. The Whirlwind air test height climb was, indeed, not much liked. My old Boss, who had mega hours on hiccopleeters, used to say that the only way he could complete a height climb was to imagine the biggest pair of swept wings in the world attached to the cabin behind him, out of view.. .My worst moment was when one of our brain dead Winch Ops put me over the side on the cable at 1500'. Now I know it was a 30 cwt cable, but it didn't seem that substantial at the time !! The ensuing 'discussion' included some pointers to his likely early demise and the legality of his parents nuptials :)

I have received the same thing from everyone here where I fly as well, highest reached by any of our CFI's was 7K.

I think it also comes down to the lack of visual clues that give you a little jump. Consider:

R-22 at 500' 75Kias, you look out and feel like you are moving.

Raise alt to 1500': and you feel like you are standing still, even though you are still at 75Kias.

I've been working my altitudes up slowly because it does make me a little jumpy, starting with doors on, then off.

Man, glad someone else brought this topic up! :) . .(Although RW-1 has done aerobatics (fixed wing) in the past, he has an inherant fear of altitude for some strange reason. I think g-d is playing with him.)

Very interesting thread.

I think that many pilots have now to their relief discovered that they are not all that strange after all. :)

I've been at 5000´ AGL in gusty winds in the H300 and I didn't like it. The floor just seemed to have left my heli when I got up there. 500´- 1500´ AGL are good altitudes and I'd like to fly there somewhere in between.

In my opinion I think its better to be closer to the ground in the event of any kind of emergency such as having to take a **** or maybe a more serious one, like fire. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Heli-Ice

One things fro sure, us Rotorheads would hate being in a pressurized tube at 37K ....

(Not that we don't have pressurized helis mind you ...)

How interesting...

Most of my flying is done between 500 -1000 agl as there is no reason to go higher and I absolutly love flying helicopters always have done.. .Over the X-mas period I had a two week break from flying and at the first opportunity I had an almost cavok day and thought I'll take up to 1500 feet. It felt very strange like almost uncomfortable although it did go away after a little while.. .It must be the change in perspective that brings this on. Would like to find out what reason behind this is.. .Safe Flying. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

I can not stand being over 1500agl. The last month I have been doing a lot of mountain stuff, and coming off an 8000' mountain in moderate turbulance. <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> Feel like I am just going to turn over and tumble down.

Personally for me, its the lack of speed indication over the ground and the thought that im just that bit further from the ground than I have to be. I thought only a few of us existed. This would make an interesting human factors study of helicopter pilots and their interest in seeing the ground closer to their work place.

Thank you all for these fascinating and informative replies. It's good to know I'm not alone in this.. .I'm not sure that theories about the lack of apparent groundspeed hold good. After all, this phenomenon does not affect me when I'm flying a fixed-wing. I suspect it's something to do with the instability of the helicopter, the feeling that you're balancing on the head of a pin.... .A guy I spoke to last weekend about this says he had an instructor who looked over the side, on one of his early student flights, and said: "We're about four screams up here... go lower."

I believe it's a valid theory worth looking into.

Along those lines on occassion I can go down the beach at 100 feet or lower, if cruising along the beach at 75-80 Kias at that alt for a while, and you go back up to 500, for a few moments you get the same feeling as if you just shot up to 2000FT.

My CFI agrees with the general concensus. Knowing we may not routinely fly high, it's likely never really been looked at.

I stil have moments when I look down out the door at 500' at some buildings and get a shiver, brrr ...

I've had many a mustering pilot say that they "can't fly above 50 feet" otherwise they get nosebleed. . .Now I know the real reason! :)

I managed to fly a robbie over Mt Ruapehu during my training in NZ and distictly remember it taking forever to get to 10K. It was a lot easier climbing to that altitude referencing the volcano than when I climbed to 9,600 last year in the R22. I was doing a ferry from Alice Springs to Katherine and was so bored that I decided to play around with the altitude to find some reasonable tailwind and cooler temps (irrespective of the TAS of course...). Without the doors on you get very tense but it is just a state of mind. I found myself just about crushing the cyclic and had to force myself to relax and concentrate. I discovered on that day that 9600 is where you run into full pitch and full throttle..... :) . .Anyhow, the winds were better at 6000.... <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> It was funny to watch the reactions of the mustering boys. Most have phobias about going over 500 agl and one I know goes everywhere at 200 agl. They were astounded that anyone would even try it. . .In the bigger machines I have no qualms at all with altitude and I take my hat off to the guys who fly paragliders, hanggliders and microlights at high altitude. Now thats crazy. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Insteresting comments about Paragliders Steve76...considering I have some 400h+ paragliding in the French Alps, I always felt a little uneasy once the mountain proximity departed from below. It was standard practice to take off from 2400 metres height, climb another 1-2000 metres and soar for 2 to 4 hours. Felt pretty vulnerable then when you had some serious emptiness below you....but that was 9 years ago. I think that a little more maturity towards mortality could be the reason behind our shared growing concern towards heights in a helo <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Know what you mean by the height. I have a problem when taking parachutists up. Its fine at 7/8ooo ft having a chat to the guys standing on your skids. When they jump the aircraft bucks about a bit - then the feeling of being all alone no doors on wondering what is actually holding you up. Feeling goes away once back below 2000ft. I'm glad its not just me. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

I reckon there is a good case for a study of this.. .There is a lack of groundspeed reference at 10000, you could be doing 60 knots or 100 kts and it looks the same.

At altitude in the mountains around Indonesia its not a problem, the only thing you notice is the altimeter and the change of vne, t4 etc, but man, try ferrying it over the water at 13000ft, no way, not this little black duck, very uncomfortable.

This is a well known phenomena in the aviation medical world (NB I'm not a medic or anything but wrote an article on this once).. .They call it "Dissociative sensations" aka the Break off or Breakaway phenomena. Many of the posts above contain the shrinking floor or balanced on a pin head description. This is what an avmed text book says (in part, it goes on for a good few pages). ."charactaristically likened to the aircraft being balanced on a knife edge or as if on top of a pin. Furthermore their [aircrew] anxiety is potentiated by the thought that the aircraft will topple from this unstable configuration and will fall out of the sky."

"Dissociative sensations are usually short lived and often disppear spontaneously when the pilot directs his attention to some other aspect of the flying task such as cockpit checks, a change of heading or an RT message"

Studies and surveys indicate that about 35% of pilots have experienced it. Fixed wing pilots get it at about 30,000ft and helo mates from 5000 to 10000ft says the book. .[Pg 310, Aviation Medicine, Ernst & Young]

So you're not nuts after all guys, well, maybe slightly loopy <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Nice one, Gainsey.. ."Dissociative sensations..." that's crapping yourself, right?

Interesting to hear from so many people with this fear of heights. Over the years I’ve heard similar comments from many rotary wing pilots, but never from seized-wing types.

I have a slightly different problem. I have a fear of heights that makes it difficult to stand on a chair or climb a ladder, but it has never bothered me when I’m inside a cabin (rotary wing or otherwise). In my youth, I did one parachute job to try to work through this fear, and made a very interesting observation. Sitting on the floor of the Cessna, feet in the breeze at 1500 ft AGL, didn’t bother me at all. Most of the descent was no problem either. But at about 20 ft AGL I realized where I was, and basically flipped out. I can't remember the rest of the descent, and came to in a ball on the field, with the instructor standing over me asking if I was OK.

I saw a similar effect many years later as an FTE operating a winch on the BO105. Standing on the skid for the first part of the flight was nerve wracking, but once we got some altitude my fears went away, and I had no problem concentrating on the tasks at hand. This included a flight to 14,000 ft out of Leadville. I’ll never forget the view on that one.

I also had many flights to 20K ft in BO105s, BKs, and Aerostars. Again, loved the view, and the smooth air, and had no problems. By the way, my father who flew helicopters and fixed wing for many years, had the same fear of heights outside of the cabin. I never got to find out how he felt about parachute jumps. His theory was only crazy people jumped out of airplanes that were still working. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Top of a height climb in an Enstrom, three abreast with a CAA engineer in the centre seat.

My door pops open, boss to me "You've got to give a months notice"

CAA man unimpressed!!!!!!!!!!

Rob_L's post brings back a memory from from flight training.

Just after take off in the 150, my door pops open, leading to the following conversation:

Me: MY DOOR'S OPEN!. .Instructor: What are you going to do about it?. .Me: AH, AH, AH.... .Instructor: What are you doing right now?. .Me: Flying the airplane?. .Instructor: Exactly.

I know that feeling when I'm way up on a ladder, etc., but not in an aircraft cabin. However, during my basic rotor training, at about 10 hours time, my instructor put us in a OGE hover at about 1000 AGL. <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> Most unnerving. Must be the lack of airspeed. It just didn't look right to a plank flyer.

Just to add my 1/2 a euro worth(!)...

I have had similar expereinces to everyone else and when doing some 'mountain' flying in CA I felt distintly uncomfortable when flying across peaks and valleys - one minute you are 500'agl then 1500' - the horizon was very poor that day too and then moment I told my CFI I was feeling a bit 'uncomfortable' it immediately agreed and we returned to the more comfortable 1000' agl over flatter ground! Still after over 5 years and a couple of hundred hours PIC still prefer to fly around at 500 - 1500'!

As a mere full time passenger, I also find it un-nerving, even though I sit in blissful ignorance of what is keeping us up most of the time. We operate almost exclusively around 800-1000' but on quiet nights, with Thames permission, wander up to 10000' to enjoy the view. Most un-nerving, and I can't wait to get back down.. .Recently watched a new film "Vertical Limits" where a UH1 allegedly lands climbers onto K2 at 26000', all without oxygen!

Thank god theres lots of us that have experianced it, not just me! I have flown in the Austrian alps up to 14k, no problem as the ground rises up with you, the only difference is performance.

However flying parachutists up to 10k with the main door open and the jump leader hanging on to your flimsy seat back leaning out and moving the seat!!!!!!! Thats something else altogether, its amazing how tight you can pull that lap strap. Also, try 10k AGL hovering with a narrow arc to observe on the ground. I really thought I was going to fall off!

The amazing thing is that repeating both experiances several times over a short period how quickly you can adjust and adapt to the new enviornment and begin to almost enjoy it. Or does that come under aviation masochism?

Fly safely ya alllllll.

Thank god theres lots of us that have experianced it, not just me! I have flown in the Austrian alps up to 14k, no problem as the ground rises up with you, the only difference is performance.

However flying parachutists up to 10k with the main door open and the jump leader hanging on to your flimsy seat back leaning out and moving the seat **** thats something else altogether. Its amazing how tight you can pull that lap strap. Also, try 10k AGL hovering with a narrow arc to observe on the ground. I really thought I was going to fall off!

The amazing thing is that repeating both experiances several times over a short period how quickly you can adjust and adapt to the new enviornment and begin to almost enjoy it. Or does that come under aviation masochism?

Fly safely ya alllllll.

I recall flying through the Alps Maritimes from Cannes, heaving the old Robbie up past 6,000 feet (with two up, low RPM horn on a lot) then all of a sudden the ground fell away perhaps 4,000 feet into a valley. I experienced a most unpleasant sensation of floating, out of control. It persisted for quite a long time, and was so strong that i retrospect I think it might have been close to debilitating. I don't know. I couldn't take it down much because we had another ridge to cross, but after that I dumped it way, way down in the Rhone Valley and crept into Valence for a nice cup of tea. Next time, I'm going round the long way.

Normal brain response i guess.

I once had to hover an AS350 first at 1,000feet then we moved up to 3,000feet, started to feel a bit uneasy, up to 6,000feet we went,now it didnt feel good at all. Finished at 10,000feet hovering for almost one hour. I was really uncomfortable, and its difficult to hold the aircraft still in a hover at that altitude, looong way to the nearest reference point. We were monitered by a radar and as soon as I started to move they would call up and ask us to hold still. After an hour of this I had a wet grip of the controlls and was really tired(squeeze). We decended down to 3,000feet again for another hover and wouldnt you belive it,it felt comfortable all of a sudden at that altitude. Normaly I fly att 1,000 feet and once you get up there its a whole new world.

Have to agree on this topic. It happened to me in my early years.

Flying an Army Kiowa on mapping survey over Cape York, FNQ. Dropped off a team and decided to climb to 10,000 on the way back to the other side of the Cape, just to see what it was like. Doors off, got to height and looked down - first time it ever struck me that I was sitting on the edge of a 10,000 foot drop-off <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> !!

Only similar feeling was flying past big Cu build-ups north of Darwin, looking down the side of the wall from 6-7,000. Makes you realise how small you really are.

But then, I'm scared of spiders as well.

The highest I ever managed in an R22 was FL100 with full throttle height at about 6700ft. It was a very wierd experience taking pitch off the whole way through the rest of the climb to maintain NR.. .I don't rememer being worried about the height but I was Sh**ing myself in case the engine quit.. .I've heard of people going above 20000ft in a Robbo which must take some fairly serious cohones and one of them was a woman!