I wouldn't be too quick to change the blades. On the Enstrom they are an on-condition item.

They are but most private owners don't fly that much anyway and in the UK they normally don't last much longer than 10-12 years before the trailing edge shows some signs of delamination.

Well, I seem to recall saying on here years ago the 28A would be a great trainer with less weight, more power and a governor.

Looks like thats what the TH180 is. :p:ok:

I have no doubt it with that weight loss, extra power and governor it will be a very capable and safe trainer. The heavy blades make entry into autorotation easy and safe and in my opinion that is not the place to save weight. The unseemly scramble to get the lever down in an R22 is not an example Enstrom should follow with a trainer.

The 28A had the makings of a great trainer but had too many 'gotchas' to compete with the R22.

Enstrom is Chinese owned. I wonder if the choice of the Lyco is aimed at the Chinese market. Its cheaper and easier to buy and maintain a piston.

I also wonder if the 390 is mogas certified. That would make a lot of sense. Except in the UK where mogas cost is all bloody tax.

There is a mogas burning 210bhp lyco 390 used in the fixed wing world.

Hey guys, while my shark is still in the deep freeze I was wondering something. Can the engine be started with the rotors secured from turning like if I wanted to warm the engine up in the hangar?

Cold Start
 

YES ... but you don't want the drive belt adjustment to be over tight. If the blades start turning on a normal start-up, you might find yourself marking and damaging the belt with engine running and blades tied. Enstrom in Menominee will have the formal answer. Dennis K

Missed the unveiling by a minute or so :( as was at the other end but took these


http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...ps7e59a5fa.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...psd9bcc924.jpg

Cheers

That was my concern Dennis. As it is now if I idle for long enough the rotor speed will marry with the engine speed after a while. I don't know if that is because of over tight adjustment or just the nature of rubbing on the belt. The belt is plenty loose, but with any touching on the drive pulley I assume there will be movement. Is there a certain amount of resistance that I should feel if I hold back the rotors by hand? Of course they turn freely with engine off, but I"m sure that's because of the sprag.

Enstrom belt drive
 

Correctly adjusted, the blades should remain stationary with the engine running at the normal idle of 1400 to 1500. I own 1104 280C which runs as above. If your blades progressively run up to eventually match the engine speed at idle, (needles married) the belt drive system is NOT in correct adjustment.

I'm sure you understand the lower pulley rotates freely inside the belt loop with the manual clutch dis-engaged as does the jockey pulley. Some 'stickiness' in the belt can be improved with the infamous 'French Chalk!' Hope this helps, but Menominee is always the final source for type information.

Take care. DRK.

Help with 280 Spec NOT 280C
 

Hi Pruners, I am trying to get some technical info on the 280, mtow, empty weight, fuel burn/capacity, rate of climb etc etc. Can anyone direct me or help as all I seem to find is info on the 280c. Also if I was going to fly this at around 1500-2000 ft above sealevel in the uk would it make any difference whether or not it was a 280 or a 280c as is the turbo not there to kick in at high altitudes when its very warm? Any other feedback on the 280 would be most welcome. thanks in anticipation :)

Would be really grateful for any help re the above post pleeeeeese!

The 280 is the same as a 28a with a pointy front. The turbo on a C will not make any real difference at 1500-2000 feet. 28As are fine up to 7500 in the uk. Beyond that weight, temperature, bravery all start to factor. I think I have been up to 9000 ish but its not something I would do regularly. Where the turbo does help is at high altitude (why go there?) or getting out of a tight LZ on a hot day with 3 on board with full tanks. You need all 205 hp then and you dont get it in a non turbo.

Off the top of my head stats for an A are as follows. The 280 will be very similar.

AUW 2150lbs, empty, most are below 1650. Some are not, so 2 adults are fine. 2 lightweights and a child if youre going 3 up. Be prepared not to fill the tanks full.

Burn is 12-14 us gph depending on how fast you want to go. At sensible weights you can get 1000fpm, 700 ish if you are at mauw. Depends on the temperature of course.

A 28a/280 is a great ship and safe if flown conservatively and well under maximum weight. My experience is low hour pilots are attracted because they are cheap. They then push the envelope to the limit and it all goes wrong. I then buy the wreckage cheap for my parts collection:).

The turbo is more forgiving and I would recommend it to low hour pilots despite its similarity on paper.

Edit 30usg standard, 40 usg as an option.

I own a 280C. Book numbers on mine with a few add ons are

Gross weight 2350lbs.
Empty weight 1604lbs
Useful load 746lbs

I do not have a lot of time in it, but it does have plenty of power compared to R22.

You can easily overboost with the turbo so you have to stay on top of it. Especially on a hot start.

Summer with full fuel and 2 adults you have to use good technique and keep the RPM at the top for best performance. I haven't had 3 in it yet.

Struts and shakes question
 

OK I finally got a chance to service my struts according to Bayard's instructions, see my previous posts about ground rock. I discovered another thing the former A&P, Jerry L, did not do. Certainly doesn't deserve his helicopter guru reputation. Each one had very little fluid and the fluid that was there was foam. Each one had very little if any nitrogen, or I would'nt doubt air, in them. This guy charged $5000 for an annual. I would think the struts would have been serviced for that. Found one somewhat stuck it was so dry. So now the question. Bayard's instructions said older machines with the extensions should use around 300lbs in front and 350lbs in rear. I did not like the way it stood so I put in 450 rear and 400 front. I have a dip stick that has the strut measurement on the back, but it is for the 280FX. Can anyone tell me how I can use that stick to see if I am standing right now? It is written on the stick "centerline fairing bump" on one end. What does that mean?

Nice pictures of new Enstrom looks a bit like 28C-2 but with spilt screen.
Be interesting to see how much she cost's.

$365,000
....
I/C

Dennis,

I was finally able to dig out from our deep freeze and fire it up. I was mistaken on the rotor RPM at idle. It actually only reached 25 RPM at idle. Is that a little tight on the belt? Also can you reply to my question about the struts?

Dirk

Lubrication help
 

I just purchased maintenance manuals for my 77 shark. Chip advised that I get the 280F manual as well so I did. I'm a little confused on the lubrication requirements. My log book shows that Mobil 28 grease was used in the main rotor components, but the 280F manual says not to use Mobil 28 grease. As a pilot for periodic lubrication needs what grease should I have in my arsenal? Is the required grease compatible with Mobil 28?

LV,

Go on the Enstrom website and check the Service Letters. The number you want is SIL168. Enstrom changed the lubrication requirements of some of the rotor hub bearings a few years ago. Mobil 28 is the wrong grease for some of the parts. If you have it, the bearings will have to be purged.

When are you located?

For IVFlyer
 

Sorry for the delay ... been out in the breeze earning a crust or two.

Not sure where you get your 25 rpm from. (rotor rpm?) Your flight manual will advise the E1AD engine as fitted to the standard C model should idle at 1400 t0 1500 rpm. At that speed in reasonably still air, the blades should not turn unless the belt is incorrectly adjusted, but please refer the problem to the factory maintenance manual or a qualified with type experience.

We type experienced pilots will always be happy to help but the proper source for information is the factory publications.

Best wishes. Dennis Kenyon.

I'm in Peoria Illinois now. Use to live in Vegas. Moved back here in 2003. Owned Fearless Freadys when I was there.

Dennis, When at engine RPM 1400 to 1500 the main rotor will begin to turn and settles at a rotor RPM of 25 with it disengaged. The manual doesn't go into great detail on belt tightness when disengaged. It is more concerned with how it is when it is engaged. My question would be at 25 RPM is there too much friction on the belt to hold it back at idle? I know the engineers have the definitive official answer, but just trying to get some idea. After engaging and then disengaging the clutch the rotor will continue to turn at near married needles and won't go below. I would assume that is because of the high inertia and the slight friction on the belt at engine idle. I wonder why they didn't include a rotor brake? I know they don't want the R22 idling without engaging the rotor so I was wondering if Enstrom is the same.

OK I read SIL 0168. I'm confused a little. It says Aeroshell 14 is preferred, but can't be used with Lamiflex bearings so Aeroshell 22 is OK as an alternative. So is Aeroshell 22 OK to use as a universal grease for all the bearings? I would like to get some feedback from other owners on this. This is my first ownership of a helicopter and I was told that it was wise to give the bearings a shot of grease now and then between annuals. What is the normal practice of some of you hands on pilots?

Aeroshell 22 is more expensive but it is the best grease to use on all the bearings. If you are doing the greasing yourself don't forget the clutch cable or the bottom pulley.

I do prefer synthetics. I've been a fan of Amsoil in my cars for over 30 years. Mobil 28 costs a little bit more than Aeroshell 22 so that isn't a problem. Why would Enstrom engineers prefer Aeroshell 14? Do I have to clean out all the Mobil 28 before using Aeroshell 22?

LV,

It is my understanding that you have to purge the bearings of the old grease when you change greases. I am not a mechanic so I am not sure of the whys and wherefore's of these.

Next there is no such thing as too much grease. I worked for a flight school where we greased the rotor heads every morning. And the heads would always take some fresh grease.

Enstrom belt drive.
 

Having another stab at your problem ... as the blades are turning with the system disengaged, you have the belt too tight. The crankshaft drive pulley should turn easily inside the belt when the system is disengaged with the belt actually able to flop around slightly.

A second possibility is the drive side of the belt has become 'sticky' with ageing. A quick cure would be a good dose of French Chalk, but the overall problem is too tight adjustment.

PS. From inspection are all the belt grooves in good condition with no detached tearing on the drive face. How old is the belt?

Regards & good luck. Dennis K

What is French Chalk? I'll take a closer look at belt and logs to see how old it is. On another note I finally was able to bleed my dampers. Great tool by Bayard, by the way. I got about 1 to 2 cc of air out of two of the dampers and less than 1cc out of the last. Is that enought to cause issues. Should I expect to see some improvement when I take it out tomorrow?

Aeroshell 22 is not the best grease for reciprocating bearings apparently. There is increased fretting of the bearing surfaces with clay based greases (which 22 is). Soap based greases perform better in this application so I use aeroshell 14 in the tail rotor feathering bearings and the main rotor flapping and lead-lag bearings. As grease can leak fom the main rotor feathering bearings and there is evidence aeroshell 14 can damage lamiflexes, the main rotor feathering bearings get 22. The fretting problem appears worst in the head bearings but doesnt seem a problem in the feathering bearings. I guess its to do with water ingress.

Everything else gets 22.

It is necessary to at least purge on changing from 22 to 14.

I dont know why soap and clay based greases dont mix, but apparently they dont.

Dennis,

I took a closer look at the belt and clutch system. No cracks present in tracks. Idler pulley turns freely so apparently the belt is sticky. Again, what is french chalk and what are the benefits of its use?

Dirk

What is french chalk ? - Talcum powder

So I should put that on the belt so it doesn't grab so much when disengaged and I would think stop the squeeling as it is being engaged? Any procedure you guys use?

Can't advise, as I've never used it on a helicopter.


But, I have used it on the belt drive of my hifi turntable, and it worked, eliminating the start up rumble and smoothing the drive take up.

Just sprinkle half a handful of chalk around the inside area of the belt, over the grooves. Rotate the head as you do it so the belt goes around, disengaged clutch obviously.:ok:
Then beat the belt with the back of your hand to make sure there is no pile of chalk in one place. That's how I did it on mine.

chopjock,

What symptoms were you experiencing that led you to use talcum powder on your belt? What were the results?

Clutch would snatch and drag on idle. The belt would grab and vibrate whilst engaging and make a horrific noise. If you open the little inspection hatch by the clutch and look at the belt whilst the clutch is disengaged and the engine is idling, the belt should just hang there quite still. Maybe dancing at little at the bottom loop that covers loosely over the engine crankshaft drive pulley.
Adding french chalk effectively adds lubrication to the belt and the whole clutch becomes much more behaved. You will still get a screeching noise whilst engaging though. I have over 1600 hours on the 280C.:ok:

Thanks. Getting a warming spell this weekend maybe I'll get a chance to look at it and put some baby powder on it. With your experience did you ever bleed the dampers? If yes then how much air is too much air. I bled mine and got 1 to 2 ccs of air out of 2 of them and 1 cc out of the other. I'm anxious to see if that will make any difference for me. I also got all my oleos setup per Bayard Dupont's instructions as well. If you did bleed them yourself, did you use the two syringes and did you cycle the dampers and bleed them again after using the tools?

No I left the dampers (rotorhead and skids) to my very competent engineer.:ok:

La Chalk Francais
 

Apologies for having to drop out ... mainly due to work!

The infamous French Chalk (normally white) is available from major parts factors, although the two tubs I had to buy this week were a horrid 'yellow' ... but fashion aside, the stuff works especially well when used on the Enstrom drive system and is correctly applied. Flying serial number 1104 yesterday even with a new pilot, rotor engagement was totally silent throughout the whole engagement process. The chalk also helps soak up unwanted engine oil in the drive belt compartment.

But to re-state. The belt system MUST be adjusted correctly since there should be nil 'dragging' of the M/R blades at engine idle 1400 - 1500 ... and certainly not to the extent earlier advised where engine and rotor speed become 'married.' .................... now back to the grind stone! DRK

Dennis and others,

I got some baby powder that was just talc and no corn starch. I tried to get some on the belt, but did discover the belt was coated in lube cast off and sticky. It was easily slid along the pulleys, however. I also had a friend hang on to the main rotor at idle and all it took was a very light touch on the finger tips. So apparently the belt needs to be cleaned or just use more talc. It isn't a big issue at the moment because winter is gone so no need to warm up the engine occasionally.

For those new to Enstroms or thinking about joining us as an owner I just wanted to confirm what the experts have been telling me about the ground rock. I followed Bayard Dupont's guide on servicing the oleos and ended up having 400psi nitrogen in the front and 450psi in the rear. That is what is recommended for the F models, but mine is a 1977 280C with extensions. I purchased the damper bleeder tools and followed the simple procedure. I got 1 to 2 CC air from 2 of the dampers and 1 CC from the other. Let me tell you this helicopter is a whole different machine. Baby butt smooth on run up and hands off hovering. It makes a lot of difference when you bleed those dampers. Funny thing is the lamiflex bearings were replaced before I took delivery so you would assume the mechanic would have handled that. NOPE, just one of many things that were not handled by JL. Today I found the drain plug loose on the tail gear box and the wrong unauthorized fluid in the gear box. Any comments on Swepco 201? That's what was in it and it is not on the approved list. There is no need for track and balance now, but I think I am still going to permanently install the sending unit and sensors of the PB-3 so I can continually monitor any changes on my smart phone.

Regarding collective trim
 

Thanks for all your valuable information. I value your experience. I need some clarification on the rigging of the collective trim. Up till now, since the collective friction in on the left side I would hold down on the co-pilot collective then release the friction since the collective would pop up with force while on the ground. I did some research and read in the maintenance manual for the 280F that when the collective trim is adjusted correctly the collective should not rise when the friction is released. Mine pops up with force so it is difficult to release the friction when the co-pilot collective is removed. So the manual said to back off the spring pack to balance the forces. I have loosened the spring pack so far that there are no threads showing on the top and the collective still pops up when the friction is released. The only way to get it to stay down without the friction was to adjust the position of the spring pack more towards the center point, just slightly over center. Still when I pull the collective up a little the force is quite a bit coming up. When flying slow it gets quite tiring holding the collective down or while waiting for departure clearance in a hover. My question to you experienced owners is what is the normal behavior of the collective and is the spring pack adjustment to balance forces only for in flight? Does your collective pop up on the ground or ease up? I know the spring isn't weak, if anything it is too strong. Do any of you use the collective friction in flight, even though there is a placard that says not too. In the 280C maintenance manual description it says the friction is for in flight forces so which is correct?