From zero to CPL and FI: Cost in UK (Merged)
 

As a complete novice I have spent time searching for the info I need but I guess that ,just like anything else, you need to know where to look. Can anyone give me a realistic idea of how much I would need to spend to be able to fly helis as a profession? And if antone can help explain the numerous abreviations then I could at least communicate in the same language.

Call it £70,000 plus opportunity cost of lost income (if applicable)

That's to get to the entry gate.

forget it - go fly a tin tube and get treated like a human - wading in !!!! and grease with the chance of the donkey dying and the machine sending you perilously to the ground, every five minutes - don't waste your time and money !

( how did I rate on the ' scaremonger scale ' lads? )

Lots and lots of threads previously about this subject. The answer comes in two parts:

1. How much to get your licence; and

2. How long before I can get a job

The answer to the first would come from any of the local flying schools. The second answer depends on how much time (and therefore ££££££) you can put into finding a job. Not very easy but it is achieveable.

The £70,000 mentioned before is probably not far off the mark if you add up all the costs.

You have been brave to throw the question out to the forum and you will get some scaremongers here and there but stick at it - you will succeed.

But FlyingSquirrel is right - if you want the bucks, go for the airlines (but nowhere near as exciting)

Phil.

I got my cpl-h in OZ and got a job straight away with the company i flew with, a few guys of hand that were there same time also got the same and within 2 years one of them is now working for Bristows as a Co-pilot, the others i lost track of, i would call that professional employment and it only cost him AUS35G , home studied ATPL and IREX.
Some will post they have spent a fortune, but thats because they are trying to buy thier way into the industry, but it doesnt have to be like that always.
Thats not a punt at those people who do, like alot of people who post, beware the companies that tell you get this and get that OH! and we can help you with that just leave us your credit card!. spend a fortune and still no job.
I feel for the UK guys spending all that dosh that could be doubled if taken else where ie: OZ or US, i saw lots of UK guys go to OZ for a CPL then even do the JAR additional hours also in oz and went back to UK, some stay in OZ and get basic tourist jobs with basic salary but heaps of hours in both piston and turbine, not a bad start.

Just another view from one who spent very little did some home work and made a few friends and went a long way
:ok: PM me if you like,tell me about your self. maybe i can help.

Ah, yes, the abbreviations...I remember that problem.

PPL(H) - helicopter private pilot's licence. You can fly, take passengers, but not be paid.
CPL(H) - helicopter commercial pilot's licence. You can legally be paid to fly. But no-one will give you a job unless you know the right people.
FI - Flight instructor. You first get an FI(R). That means it's restricted, ie you can only instruct under supervision. Getting rid of the restriction is hard, so there are loads of FI(R)s looking for work.
ATPL(H) - Helicopter air transport pilot's licence. Not sure how you get this; it used to be when you'd flown loads of hours, but that may have changed. You really, really don't need to worry about it now.
Ab initio - lit "from the start" if I remember my Latin correctly. Used by flying schools to mean they'll take someone who doesn't know one end of a helicopter from another, and teach them from there right up to getting...whatever.

Basically, to stand any chance of a job, you need a PPL(H) - around 50-70 flying hours; a CPL(H) - lots of exams and a 30 hour flying course; and an FI(R) rating - total of 250 flying hours altogether, plus a 30 hour flying course. Multiply all that by £250/hour (less when flying solo), add in a couple of thousand for exams, medicals, and ground school (written work) and you won't be too far off the figure needed to have any chance of getting a job. Subtract a bit if you're willing to work out the rigmarole of being VAT registered (you can claim it back in some circumstances), if you can go abroad to hour build (do lots of flying to get those magic hours), or you want to pay for some flying in advance and get a reduction (risky; flying schools go to the wall with monotonous regularity).

Right, now we're speaking the same language...what else do you want to know?

ATPL (H)
 

Airline Transport Pilot Licence (Helicopters)

This is the licence towards which all pilots should aspire.
The requirements are as follows:

To be aged at least 21 years;
Pass the fourteen ATPL(H) theoretical knowledge examinations;
Have completed at least 1000hrs of flight time to include:
350hrs multi-pilot operations, 250hrs pilot-in-command (PIC), 200hrs cross-country flight time, 70hrs instrument time, and 100 hours night flight as PIC.

The only realistic route to this is to obtain your CPL(H) and then apply for a job on the North Sea. Don't worry about finding work, there's plenty of it about. ;)

I have said it before, but I will say it again


CPL(H) only £40k approx high risk, no chance of employent
CPL(H) + FI rating £60k approx, low risk much better chance of employment but rewards can be low until you become high time
CPL(H) + IR £70k high risk, potentially high returns is you get to the north sea, jobs scarce at present

thats it really

regards

CF

Phil,

At those prices you'd be better off going to Oz and getting a licence there. Half the price, better job prospects and you could drop all that saved cash on the aussies to win the ashes and be laughing all the way into the hover!!!! ;)

training is often cheaper in countries other than the uk, but beware.... without a work visa, a low-time pilot will probably struggle to find work.

Cheaper in the USA!
 

Phil

You can set yourself up for alot cheaper in the USA - and there are Visas schemes that will allow you to get your qualifications and then work to achieve a respectable number of hours. Check out Helicopter Adventures Inc in Florida.
:ok: :ok: :ok:

It is cheaper getting your licence abroad but the problems come when:

1. You pass your CPL, but because your hours are so low no-one can employ you as they can't get you insured.

2. It's much easier for companies to employ a resident of the country rather than go through a load of hassle to employ johnny-foreigner.

3. You find out you can't stay in the country and end up having to come back to the UK where the :mad: CAA tell you that your licence isn't worth a damn and if you want to fly over here you'll have to do all the ground school & exams again!

Not that I'm bitter :{

Phil, are you still young enough for the military option?

You might want to check the status of the J1 visa before you go down the US road. l believe things are in the process of changing with regards to working on a J1 after you have finished your training. Chances of a 'green card' are nil unless you turn up on a rubber tube and claim refugee status. Then there is always the lottery!!!!!

Thinking of doing CPL?
 

Hi all,

I put a post up on Saturday, thanking a number of people for getting me from 0 hours to CPL in just under 12 months, a few people have PM'd me to ask more details costs, advice etc.

I thought it might be helpful if I put up an e-mail I sent out in reply to relay my experience of getting through the last 12 months.

I hope it helps, some of it overlaps with stuff in FAQ's, but hey, something in there might help.

Good Luck, see below, oh and thanks for the congrats to those who sent them through

Adam



Firstly Class 1 medical, before you spend a penny, without this you are going
nowhere, bout £500.

Not sure of your financial position, I was reasonably comfortable, but had the fixed outgoings which go with a well paid job, I budgeted very carefully, went to see an excellent accountant. Don't kid yourself on the budget, there will always be things you don't factor, add at least 10%. Also factor in any loss of income, I stopped working entirely on 31st July 2004 so I could devote 100% of my time to it. Accountant got me Vat registered and sorted out National Insurance that type of thing.

Back of a fag packet
PPL £14k, less vat if you get registered, includes a bit for the 7 exams and test itself, I did it in 46.2 hours including the test and 6 weeks, don't believe this stuff about 60 hours to get through, it's not necessary if you are doing it intensively. If you do a couple of hours a month then yes it's likely to be 60+ hours. My instructor was £215 per hour plus vat.

I contacted Bristol Ground School the same day I passed, but in fact you could start earlier you just have to demonstrate you have completed the exams before doing the CPL Skills test. Their distance learning course is excellent, I didn’t go for a classroom course as the pace is too slow,
I did the lot start to finish in 6 half months, but I worked hard, could have easily taken a month or even two off that if I had really worked, but couldn’t have done as much hour building. I did 9-5 every weekday. £1900 for this plus 4 weeks accommodation at £30 per night in Cheddar,
13 exams total, I got through them all first time, none of it is rocket science, but there is a lot, USE THE ONLINE QUESTION BANK before hand, I had three weeks solid on this alone for the first lot of exams.

CAA exam fees about £60 each, 13 exams. Plus a few days accommodation at exam centres and food say £500.

Hour building at the same time, I flew all through the winter and so was happy to fly less than sunny condition, but watch for deteriorating weather and always have options, wind is a big issue at low hours, well all hours for that matter, have landed in a field rather than press on a couple of times, never even think of going anywhere near IMC. I hooked up with a more experienced mate who was also hourbuilding about 50 hours ahead and we could split workload, especially useful when in !!!!!e weather. Difficult balance here, but you do need to push yourself a bit, otherwise you will shy away from anything but benign conditions, but do be exceptionally careful and take advice from more experienced pilots.
Going to states is a waste of time, by the time you have factored in VAT rebate it's not cheaper and people will look on you better if all your flying is in the theatre you operate in. Unless you want a holiday or to work out there.

Hourbuilding Use this time wisely, visit lots of flightschools in the heli, go abroad a couple of times, I flew to the Pyrenees and took some mountain flying instruction, get comfortable with helilanes, get to know as many people as possible. So from PPL pass you need to get to 155 hours to start course, so for me an additional 110 hours at £150 plus vat self fly rate. Quite a lot of hotels and stuff to factor in in the hourbuilding say £3k on top. And have a purpose for every single flight, if it is to meet someone, find out
they are there and fly in, do not waste this time.

Commercial course 30 hours at £215 plus vat again, relatively straightforward and really improves your flying, also you need to factor in an additional five hours night flying, which cost me in total £1800 inc vat. Look at document 3H on the CAA website for a description of what's in the test, put it in the search and it'll come up. Exam fee is £600, plus about 2 hours heli hire.

So I reckon about £50k plus loss of income, the ground school is not too difficult if you are motivated. YOU WILL NOT GET A JOB AT 200 HOURS CPL, best bet is get to 250 and do instructors rating, I gather the course is challenging and another 30 hours plus exam fee and there do seem to be people looking for instructors if you have the right attitude.

Get a very experienced instructor you get on well with and who has guaranteed access to aircraft, this can be difficult if they don't have their own Heli, mine did, actually he had access to two on his own, watch this as I have spoken to people who have
had numerous lessons cancelled because aircraft have gone out on charter at short notice. Pay nothing up front, or just a bit, I would lodge a couple of grand, use it up, sometimes in a couple of days then he would ask for some more, sometimes I owed him a little sometimes he owed me, but never let the balance
get too high either way.

Oh and I also did a 44 conversion which was excellent as I have managed to get about 15 well cost shared hours from that as noone will pay to go up in a 22 on their own, but 3 mates together at £100 each for an hour is affordable and fun for them.

So now I am an unemployed heli pilot, I have a few really good irons in the fire, but we'll see, great year, oh and I have started a gardening business in the last 3 months which is doing quite nicely and allows me to be flexible.

When you look at your finances cut out all unnecessary expenditure, I even canned the SKY Sports subscription.

First flight was a year ago yesterday, I had never flown anything before and no aviation background at all, but am very motivated.

This is a bit rambling, happy to help, com back to me with any clarification.

My views entirely, and treat the damn things with a huge amount of respect,they'll have you in two seconds flat, I used to race in the British Superbikes and nothing was ever as scary as one or two moments I have had in a R22, read Fatal traps for helicopter pilots and scare yourself by reading lots of AAIB accident reports, if you still want to do it JUST GO FOR IT!

Adam

An EXCELLENT post! I'm into my 8th hour in adding a helo rating to my ppl so this is fun for me to read.

1. You said there are a few job prospects for a 250 hr CPL. What types of jobs?

2. Did you find the CPL much tougher than the PPL?

3. May I ask how old you are?

4. What are your intermediate and long-term career goals?

5. Your next step to achieve those goals?

Thanks

In my opinion there seem to be a few people in the UK looking for instructors at the moment, if you have a good attitude, so once you have an instructors rating there is a small possibility of employment, terms will not be great though.

CPL in itself is not that much tougher than PPL, standards are higher, but you are flying better by that stage, I found the pre prep on the ground more challenging that the test itself, look at the 3H document

Im 37, Aries, good sense of humour ;)

Career goals ultimately want to end up working overseas, but that is some time away, want to get into the North Sea, had a trip up there recently and it's an incredible set up

Next step, get to 250 hours, to start instructors rating, but out of budget for hour building now, so this will have to be begged borrowed and stealed, currently on 206 and following up on the contacts I have made during hourbuilding

Hope this helps

Congrats and good luck for future. I quit my job last week with view to doing cpl next year so very helpful to read your comments. I might be pestering you in the future for some more advice.

Hey Jemax - ever seen that show, the flying gardener? I think you better get in touch !! :D

Hey jemax,

Really great post for someone like me,

Im about 90hrs PPL (H) at present and hoping to do what you have described,

You sound really motivated (with respect to the exams),

I just hope I can find that drive when studying,
Would full time learning be better? I know you chose not to because it was too slow!,

Any thoughts

Maddy

I have a hedgetrimmer with more grunt than a R22! Although even had to cancel Gardening work today cos of weather, and could do with the money!

Maddy, Ref Full time study, I have spoken to people who have done full time and got on well with it, but generally it's a minimum of nine months and leaves less flexibility for hour building. I was able to hour build at the drop of a hat when circumstances or aircraft availability allow, I believe it costs more too especially if you need to uproot to do the course.

Each to their own, some prefer classroom, I hadn't studied seriously since 18, but part of the reason I packed in my previous career was because I wasn't learning anything, so I found the learning fun.

Plus none of the ground school is really difficult, a few bits make you wonder until you get to the two week brush up, but they tend to clear up when they go through them, be aware there is a big volume of work. I can't overestimate the imortance of the on line question bank, there was a big difference in the brush up between those who had done it and those who hadn't.

Good luck

Excellent post Jemax, very inspirational. If I was hiring heli pilots / instructors, I'd certainly hire you.

Rare to come across someone with such UNFALTERING drive. Best of luck for your future.

ariel

Hey Jemax,

Just woundering what you meant by

"I hooked up with a more experienced mate who was also hourbuilding about 50 hours ahead and we could split workload"


If your "mate" is sitting in the right seat of the r22 and your in the left you cant record that as flying hours... can you???

Or did you just mean to ease testing flying conditions?

Thanks

Mady

>"Going to states is a waste of time, by the time you have factored in VAT rebate it's not cheaper and people will look on you better if all your flying is in the theatre you operate in. Unless you want a holiday or to work out there."

That's rather an unfair blanket statement. Not everyone can afford UK hour building prices and a R44/B206 rating.

If you have no ties to the UK then going to the USA on a J1 visa can be the most attractive option to gain experience, plus it may open up other worldwide opportunities.

the controller,

It could be argued that if you cannot afford to learn and hour build in the UK and get a 44 rating, then you cannot afford to become a CPL. I know that is controversial, but there are too many people out there with big loans and no licence.

Jemax,

Great post and my story is similar, although I was pre JAR.

All other aspiring North Sea pilots:

There is a rumour going around that some self improvers in the NS have not met expectations and have struggled with IR/twin type rating/multi IR conversion/line training/night deck landings. If you want to go North Sea you must speak to the companies and find out what they want in terms of training and experience.

Good luck and go for it, but make sure you do your research first.

I hold by statement about the states, I intend to fly in the UK for a while so wanted to build my experience here, you also have to factor in accomodation.

However a mate did go out there hooked up with the right people and has a plum job in Equador now, it's just my opinion. People say it's cheap there about £100 sterling self fly per hour, well best I was quoted here was £135 ex vat so choice is yours. Can be fun though I hear, oh and of course visiting the Robbo factory for the safety course is a must if you are over there.

Also R44 rating is not so much, if you consider the comparitive price vs self hire of a 22 which you'll have to do hour building anyway. £300 vs £150 for 5 hours and it helped me get about 15 R44 hours subsidised afterward and a type rating.

Ref hooking up with the mate we split the flying and did much longer flights, e.g first time across the channel together, over to Northern Ireland, plus it's a bit of company for a beer for the overnight stop.

Boomerangben, I have done my research ref N Sea, but appreciate the challenge and learning it involves.

Oh just to clear up it's 206 flying hours total not a 206 rating, I wish!

Training Costs???
 

OK Ladies and Gentlemen

I know I'm gonna get blasted for this but I cannot seem to get a reliable answer from Flight Schools.

I wish to go from zero to FI and would like the cold hard facts about the costs involved for an average student (not just the minimum hours required per license and 'it's cheaper in the US especially if you do it all with us in one go' etc).

I would like to do it all in the UK using the same school (continuity etc and will also need to work to cover the costs of hours building and the courses after PPL(H)).

I would like to do as much of the ground school as possible at home unless some sections would be more beneficial with an instructor.

Any help in coming up with a costing would be grately appreciated and also what are the chances of any employment at the end of it all (part time or full time). Can ferrying jobs be obtained to bolster flying hours after PPL(H) or would you need CPL(H) status.

Thanks for your assistance

:8

PPL(H) costs
 

I started my PPL the October 2003 and completed the course in June 2004. I was flying 1 to 2 hours every weekend at the same time as I was studying for the theory exams. Below are the total costs I had to pay then.

PPL Hours Flied:
Total Hours (Inc. Test) 49.2

PPL Total Costs:
Flying 11092 (£240 an hour)
Books 249
Written exams 140
R/T Oral exam 40
Flight Test 200
Issue PPL licence 149
Class 2 Medical 200
Travel 323

Total 12393

Notice that I was very lucky with the travel (Train and then cycled to the airport)

This is a post I put up a couple of months ago, I hope it helps

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...nking+of+doing

I am starting FI course on 2nd Nov and the company I am going with are going to use me once I have completed course, but I go into it with eyes open and we'll see what actually happens.

Good luck, back of a fag packet to FI £70k plus loss of income, thats with about 35 hours scrounged/free/freeish/cost shared

I knew it was going to be a long haul to get to FI. I have the funds for the PPL(H) without working, so can concentrate on the first part unimpeded from there stuff gets a bit more difficult.

I suppose I'll have to go back to work and try and hour build somehow until I can get onto the CPL(H), and I'll have to do that part time (1 Hour a week maybe if I'm lucky). Hour build again and then the FI course.

A couple of the schools that I've looked at use the Schwiezer 300 which is supposed to be a bit more forgiving than an R22. I will need a type rating for the R22 though as most schools use that helo (although I've heard some scary stories about that twitchy little beast). I also want a type rating on the R44.

The ideal thing for me would be, do the PPL(H); get a full time job as ground crew at a school; beg hours; get up to FI and then move up to flight staff at the same school. (I can dream can't I?);-)

By the way I live in Yorkshire so any recommendations in that area would be appreciated if you know of any decent schools there.

By the way Jemax, who did you ride for as I'm a huge fan of BSB, used to have an R1 until one of my mates was killed and another trashed himself (stick to the tracks I say).

Jemax

Good post, its not easy going the self study route and to have completed it in 1 year is very commendable. You mentioned a couple of good point for those wishing to take that route. I must agree with the point on training in the states, as an employer / someone who sees a great deal of CV's my senior guys always frowned upon those who had trained and hour built in the states, 'fair weather fliers' as I kept getting told!! The british weather, as you rightly pointed out, can throw some pretty interesting situations at you very quickly and it is those who unfortunately push on into worsening conditions or IMC that create the accidents - a field is always a better option.

Another useful titbit for those with low hours (which includes myself!) is to try and get associated with an AOC company where you can either, if you are really lucky, dead leg or at least go on trips to areas you have not been before - we have always had problems with the low time flyers who do not hours build away from base i.e. train at an airfield and fly 100 hours at that airfield. It will always lead to problems in Nav and confidence. There are a number of operators who I am sure would welcome those who are interested. This also gives those who have not had experience in the commercial world a chance to see what really goes on - for those thathave been through it will more than likely agree that the training, irrespective of how good the school is, can never really prepare you for public transport flying - passengers can be a strange addition to the cockpit environment.

All in all flying is great fun and a hell of a way to earn a living (for those that can), the very best of luck to all looking for work or going through the fun of the CPL!!

Furthermore for those going on the self study route (fixed or rotary) - I cannot recommend Bristol Ground School strongly enough, Alex and the team are fantastic and the notes are relatively easy to read. They also have fantastic feedback so you should be pretty well prepared for the exams.

Is it really that much ?
 

Hi all,

Just been on the phone to "fast helicopters" at shoreham enquiring about working my way up the ladder from PPL(H) to getting my CPL(H) and IR course.
I was shocked when the person I spoke to said that when it comes to getting my IR course...it costs about £40k alone ! :eek::eek:

Is this average or normal ? does anyone know anyone cheaper for the IR course and if so, are they as good ? I just dont know how I could get that sort of money in a short period of time.

IR
 

I'll add my two pennies until someone else comes on and gives you chapter and verse..... but yes, doesn't sound 2 far off.

Thought that probably includes your type conversion.

IR in UK (JAA) land, is generally done on twin engine turbine (with one or 2 exceptions) conversion to type in that costs circa £10k, then £30k for the rating itself on the twin (including sim time)...lets hope you get through first time on min hours !!

£40k is about right and probably assumes you get through in minimum hours and, of course, doesn't include the test fees which are over £1k.

Cheers

Whirls

IR Costs
 

Hi

No posts here for nearly a year so seeking some up-to-date advice.

I'm soon-to-be-ex-military, a bit over 6000 hrs rotary, mostly SAR. I have a UK ATPL(H) and could probably renew my S61N rating the same way I got it on a Sea King.

The questions: To improve my employability, what's the best use of time and money - FI or IR or a type rating on something that will open a vfr job? What's the cheapest way to an IR (if Aunty Betty will let me, can it be done on a mil ac)?

I'm reading all the info and starting to ask around, but would appreciate good advice from those already in the business.

thanks

Sven

PPL(H) Funding
 

Hi, I have been wanting to do my PPL(H) for quite a while now and being a helicopter pilot is the only career path that I can see myself doing in the future. However, there is that one small issue of finding the money to do the training. As I am only 20 years old I don't have much in terms of 'life' savings, especially not the required £10-12k, so I am struggling to see where the money is going to come from. Do any of you who have already done the training have any tips for me? How did you go about funding your PPL(H)??

Thanks.

I worked hard at school and univeristy, got a good job for maximum income with minimum effort and saved. But then, I was too old to join the armed forces.

Cheers

Whirls

^^^Wot Whirls says.

Join the Army/RAF/Navy. They will pay for everything, in exchange for a few years of your life.

Or get daddy to pay for it...

20 years in IT paid for my career change. :}