New blood/alcohol limit for pilots
 

The (believe it or not) RAILWAYS AND TRANSPORT SAFETY ACT 2003 regarding this clause, comes into force in February 2004.

In it it states that under JAR-OPS limits, the new maximum limit for pilots ATCO's and cabin crews blood alcohol limit, will be reduced from 80mg of alcohol/100mg blood; to 20mg/100mg.

This is the equivalent of drinking a quarter of a pint of medium strength beer, or not even one tot of spirits!!

If the old limit was adhered to (80mg), then the time it would take for that limit to reduce to the new limit, would/could be 24hrs!!!

Basically to remain below the new limit would mean not drinking AT ALL from >1 day before until immediately after your long run of continuous shifts:{

Aircraft licensed engineers are mentioned in this, but because they are perceived as not as great a threat to transport safety as the others (:yuk: ), then they can retain their original limit.
{Actually it's because everyone knows that engineers can't hold their own:uhoh: }

Penalty for busting the limit: fine and/or up to 2 yrs in prison!!
The UK altered the penalty system a fraction by removing the other penalty clause which may exist elsewhere in Europe: Loss of licence:\

Persons responsible for prosecuting this new law: PC plod!!!!

They are not allowed to board an a/c, nor do a random test, but they can request to meet up with the 'target' and breathalyse him away from the a/c and in private (thats OK then).

It is being suggested, that if a crew member/ATCO is targetted, that they be given the rest of the shift off because of the stress of waiting to see if they fail the test:ooh:

2 pilots from an unnamed airline -recently resigned immediately prior to being tested, because they were advised (apparently) that if they exceeded the limit, they would lose their licences too [existing system (80mg), not the new law where LOL is not an option].

Oooh er missus!

Are you sure theres not a Christmas exclusion for those on the road......Like about .05
What say you Ned??

TC,

I never realised I could have had up to 80% alcohol in my circulatory system. Oh, think of all those times I have not had a drink because I was flying the next day. What a waste of good beer!

Still, a 20% alcohol solution in the blood is not too bad...... :E

I'm afraid I see no harm in it at-all. I found out about the new 20%mg limit a while ago and having a few hours to spare, did some research in the RAeS library in London. Below are my findings (I have posted them before, but not in this forum).

G


The basic unit of alcohol within the body is mg/100ml of blood (referred to as %mg BAL). Obviously the relationship between how much you drink and BAL is dependent upon sex, weight, and a few other things. But the references seem to pretty much agree on the following rules of thumb for a standard adult:-

1 pint beer: 24%mg within an hour (can be up to 35%mg, depending upon strength of beer which clearly varies)
1 measure spirits: 12%mg within an hour
1 small glass wine: 15%mg within an hour.

The body (liver) then evacuates alcohol at a pretty constant rate of 15%mg per hour - although the references do admit that depending upon physiology it can actually be anywhere between 8 and 25 %mg/hour.


That stuff most of us had some idea about, but certainly it helps work out where we are after a good night out.


Now to the interesting bit - what the various studies gave as effects of alcohol. The various reports, papers and medical textbooks were pretty consistent. From them I came up with the following:-

11%mg - Reduced ability to maintain correct airspeed or flightpath under high workload

15%mg - 1/3 of pilots in fatal accidents had this level or above in their bodies (from autopsy reports)

20%mg - UK legal flying limit. Significant increase in errors on RT, planning and correct following of procedures.

40%mg - US legal flying limit. Major effect on number of errors on RT and following procedures.
- Reduction in g tolerance by between 0.1 and 0.4g.


50%mg - Impaired ability to visually fix or track objects

60%mg - Consistent degredation of long term performance even on low workload tasks.

80%mg - UK legal driving limit

150%mg - loss of self control (exactly what is meant by this wasn't defined)

200%mg - double vision, some loss of memory

400%mg - Loss of consciousness.


Three other notes were interesting...

(1) from a study where they tanked pilots up to 150%mg which was that afterwards when BAL had gone down to zero, visual impairment and disorientation could occur up to 7 hours afterwards.

(2) All the studies agreed that under high workload alcohol degraded pilots' performance much more than under low workload.

(3) Up until very high alcohol levels, virtually all the degredation was of judgment or ability to follow procedure, rather than of actual physical skills.

O well - looks like my instructor will be out of a job soon enough then ha ha

For those who are interested in the source, this I believe is the relevant part of the relevant legislation:

http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/30020--f.htm#92

I am sort of just surprised that it has almost come into effect without any of us having been advised about it - but now we know!
:)

For the avoidance of doubt, if I read it right it applies to PPLs as well as commercial pilots.

Drinking and Flying
 

You might want to read this thread in R&N:

Alcohol and Flying: The new law.

We work on about eight hours from bottle to throttle........ except in the terratory, where we work on about eight feet. :}

Hey guys, Im new to Pprune, but here is my 2p worth.

Although I agree with the aspect of greater concerns for safety, I struggle to understand why it doesn't carry across to other fields where there are similar concerns.
Personally I think engineers should have the same limits as they are just as involved with the safety of an aircarft as the pilots are - I wouldn't want a hungover engineer with impaired abilities due to the night before doing an overhaul / 50hr check on any mchine that I or any friends would be flying.
And drivers - how many drink driving offences or worse deaths are there on the roads? - in my mind too many, so why isolate pilots?

Any thoughts?

Not longer than 25 minutes before a night flight and not within sight of the aircraft...."Crew, About Face!":ok:

its ok TC the old bill can enter your aircraft

Powerup, I agree with you completely. Going back to my earlier post, it seems that judgement is the first thing to go. So a maintenance engineer is judging whether a component is fit to remain on an aircraft, or a design engineer is checking whether a piece of design can be accepted. Both chaps need their judgement at 100% - pure mechanical skill tasks can be slowed down, decisions are more difficult.

I have seen an aircraft destroyed (thankfullly without loss of life) due to a manager making an unjustifiable decision after a liquid lunch. He was eased gently out into early retirement shortly afterwards - my opinion at the time was that he should have had the book thrown at him, and my view's not changed yet.

For that matter it should be applied to everybody in this industry, whether it's a pilot or engineer, or a receptionist or accountant. Everybody is making decisions that affect safety and/or the viability of our employers. I want my colleagues sober in working hours !

G

The nice old CAA have got around to telling us commercial pilots in a FODCOM - not sure how private pilots are supposed to know about it:

www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FOD200328.pdf


The abbreviated title of the pdf file may prove significant! :)

A randomly selected sample of plods on the ground know about as much as we do at the moment. When pressed, they seem to consider it "the same as driving" but with limits at around 15% of the driving limit.

May I wish all of you due to fly early in the New Year in the UK a fairly abstemious holiday!

LAME = Licensed Aircraft Mechanical Engineer ??

The limit for that role will be as per UK driving.

Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer. A UK term for qualified maintenance professionals - some countries might call them technicians or mechanics (and some UK LAME's are very insulted by being called anything but Engineer).

G

Tudor.....
 

[No this is not my first post...just had to reset my membership following a virus].

I know this is a cop out....but I don't mention it for that reason.

If you are drinking and silly enough to drive or try to fly, then never ever supply a test sample if caught. [Assumming you realise that your well over the limit]

Yes you will be charged with failing to "Provide a Sample". But that charge on your future resume is far less damaging than drunken driving or flying!!
You can mitigate that charge by many statements, but its hard to mitigate that your a drunken driver or pilot.

You're probably right.


Tudor Owen

The charge is still on your licence for 10 years. Try explaining why you refused your tests, to your future employees!

But on face value, you're right.

The lesser of 2 evils, I suppose.

This new law, does it affect NON commercial pilots - can't find anything to say it does?

It effectively means for most 'mere mortals' that ANY alcohol consumed within, say 24hrs of going on shift, might probably push you over the limit.

Any VIRGIN pilots listening:D

On my roster this limits me to an evening drink on just 2 nights in 15.

How long before the first police air observer (CAA passenger), the morning after, nabs his own pilot for being over the 20mg limit, while said police officer can be up to 80mg?

A lot more pilots are going to be catching 'one day colds' in order to avoid any "complications"!

The new law applies to all pilots, not only those flying commercial flights.

I think there is no doubt that the law applies to all pilots, if you read the relevant bit of the Act.

Bertie may well be right about future problems within ASUs.

Although the requirements do not specifically seem to apply to police observers themselves, they do apply to cabin crew. What about the observers themselves being sober? - a police observer is every bit as involved in the safe operation of an aircraft as a trolley dolly.;) :E

I fail to see what the problem is. If the new rule states that you cant have a drink 24hrs before strapping the aircraft to your arse then thats the rule.......live with it. It appears that pilots are a bunch of sots who cant get by without a drink for a day!

However, I do agree that this limit should be "across the board", mechanics, technicians, police officers, cabin crew etc..

This is just another example of over-regulation by the authorities.
We have the same problem over here with Transport Canada.

KENNYR,

I am not antagonistic to the idea of controlling drinking in aviation at all. Working on a regular shift pattern as I do these days, I simply do not drink while I am in a set of shifts and save my drinking until I am OFF.

However, I think there are some problems with the regulations. because they are not as you suggest they should be. If it was a simple rule, like a 24 hr rule, then OK. The problem is that the requirements are set in alcohol levels that are so low that it is not at all clear how long you need to stop driniking in order to be sure that you would pass a test.

Talking to police and medics, they do not seem to know either.

Basically, the regs have been designed to be easy to enforce, but without much regard to allowing those having duties to be sure they comply.

The only problem that I can see with having an across the board alcohol policy, is that whilst aircrew are limited in the hours/rotations that they can legally work, there is no such restriction when it comes to engineering staff who are on short term shift rotations.
I've lost track of the number of times that I've finished work, and not due to resume again for 48 hrs. Then the phone goes, telling me XXX was sick, and I would have to go back on shift in 7 or 8 hrs.
I've never had a problem with this (it's all overtime!), but what would happen if I said I'd just had a few beers, and was not legally able to work for 48 hours?.
I know I would legally be able to refuse to work, but this would soon have an effect on any future prospects with my company.

Not being fixed wing orientated, could someone tell me, are airline cabin crew working hours regulated to the same extent as flying crew?

419

419

In all fairness, an onshore commercial pilot may not be due to fly for 2 days, but what if they where to get a last minute call for (example) an airport taxi, and they had a beer last night? It works on both sides.

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the body produce an amount of alcohol naturally anway? and with such a low allowance by law, might that not be cutting fine if you eat or drink the wrong thing?

Power Up,

I think that is all part of the ccncern about the low level that the new limit is at. There is a lack of knowledge about what you have to do to avoid breaching the limit.

Presumably the new regs cover mil aircrews and atc in the UK?

The new law applies to ATC, but not to Mil Pilots who are subject to Mil regulations.

After years of listening to the Bobbies telling me that they were ‘Crew’ and not ‘Passengers’ (as defined in the PAOM) It was interesting to hear them backtrack today as they insisted the legislation didn’t apply to them because they were passengers after all!:mad:

I've a funny feeling the first 'shop' under the new legislation will come from a police ASU !

I could't agree more Bertie - Kind of gives you a nice warm feeling inside, doesn't it...

Agreed - but what a neat way for those units who've gone Direct-Employed to get rid of a driver they'd rather not have on board, eh? ;)

Charlie s charlie,

I heard that the 20mg level approximated to about a quarter of a pint of strong lager, Grolsch etc. ?

c s c,
I have a friend who has not drunk alcohol for more than 5 years but often has close to 20mg/100 ml of alcohol in his blood when he is tested during our company random alcohol and drug tests. This is because his body naturally produces ethanol. People like him are probably one of the reasons that the limit has not been fixed at zero.
You stated that: and then that time does not come into it, but I seem to remember from my schoolboy math that rate is the number of times something happenswithin a given period of time, so I don't quite get your point there.
I decided to make more of a search since there is a lot of contradictory and confusing information on this thread and none of it seems to come from people with medical qualifications (Flying Doctor - are you out there?).
I found the following information:

at this site:
The Drink Wheel - Calculate Your Blood Alcohol
The University of Oklahoma Police Department also has a useful guide at this site:
The Police Notebook
If you're worried that you may be affected you can buy your own testing equipment via this site:
Blood Alcohol Testing Kits
It's obviously quite a complicated subject and if you don't want to fail a test the only advice must be to severely reduce your alcohol intake the night before you fly.:uhoh:

c s c
Our company alcohol tests are done using urine.
There is a bit more on the possibility of endogenous alcohol in the body in a thread on BAC in the Medical Forum, but must admit it does seem to be inconclusive (although the UK GASIL report does refer to alcohol naturally occurring in the bodies of some people).
I agree that the only sure way of knowing if you can be considered fit now is to buy a testing kit - hence the last link in my previous post.
Hope not too many errors here as have been consuming some wine tonight - luckily I'm not on duty tomorrow!
Interesting subject though isn't it?

Fascinating discussion..now to throw a spitball...

Are you folks serious about buying a breathalyzer so that you can test yourselves before going flying?

How about abstaining?

We are not talking about a bunch of teenagers wondering at 2 am if one of us is sober enough to drive; we are professional pilots, after all, and should be thinking about how we can conduct ourselves with the utmost regard to safety, etc.

If I need a breathalyzer to determine if I should be going flying, then it is indeed time to call in sick, and go see my MD about getting some addictions counselling....

My $Cdn 0.02....I await you spitballs in reply...:)

csc..point taken.

I guess the issue I was trying to highlight was this:

If having a single drink can put your license at risk, then why risk it? Is this not why many plank drivers live under a 24 hr abstention rule? I enjoy a rum toddy as much as the next guy, but if having one during a social event is going to put my livelihood at risk....????

... and if I cannot socialize without having a drink, then .... ?

wde

Zebedee,
I think you have misunderstood the previous posts regarding endogenous ethanol production - the human body can not synthesize the enzymes required to metabolize sugars in to ethanol, this can only be done by yeasts and similar micro-organisms. Therefore all ethanol found "naturally" in the body is produced by candida etc in the gut.
I realise if you do not have a scientific background this may be difficult to grasp.
May I also suggest that a pilot suffering from candida over-growth is as great a liability as a pilot who knowingly consumes alcohol, if not more so because he has no control over the amount of alcohol in his system?

Oh No!!!!!!!!!!
 

Thought it was eight feet from the aircraft!!:ok: