In that sort of wind I would be very careful with a steep approach because the induced flow would be so little that you would have to almost bottom the collective just to reduce the angle of attack. I've gone in sideways to sites before, to keep out of the main airstream, though that was Ben Nevis, so there was plenty of power available, even in a 206.

How would I deal with that? I wouldn't be! If you have read my posts properly you would have seen that I don't consider steep approaches to be an exclusive option. It is simply my preferred method since it provides the best all-round results, i.e. actually making the site, with or without an engine, which is something to think about because there won't be anywhere else to go. Dunno about you, but I like to maximise my chances of staying alive! :)

I've had enough nods of approval from people who know what they're about, including the inspector who did my first Canadian licence ride (Jim Gray), so I know I'm not wrong. In fact, we did some of the navex and the latter half of the trip in the mountains because he said it was nice for him to be with someone who wasn't trying to kill him! It's not better than anybody else's method, it's just different.

The other point to consider is that I'm one of the few people who consider that this is one industry where the customer isn't always right. I don't actually care if the weather stays too windy for three days. If it's not safe, I ain't going in and that's that. Naturally, I will have a look, if it's safe enough, but I have, on occasions, not even started the engine, which I know is not politically correct in Canada. It amazes me how customers who cannot see the end of the runway in fog or snow still want you to start up and have a go.

Phil

chopperchav
 

One good thing about those very strong updrafts is that once you landed (shallow I suggest), you can take off like a rocket...


d3

Yeah, like the proverbial startled rabbit! :)

Phil

Too bad more helicopter pilots couldn't have received mountain flying instruction from John Kennedy, ex Highland Helicopters Base Manager from Castlegar, BC. IMO he was not only an excellent mountain pilot but a real gentleman. I consider myself extremely luck to have been on the receiving end of John's instruction.
Munchkins

Mountain Flying Courses
 

Can anyone give me some advice on the various mountain flying courses offered in New Zealand? Which of the schools/courses are worth doing? Any to steer clear of? and how do they compare with similar courses in Canada and other places?

Canadian Helicopters in Penticton BC offers, arguably, the best mountain course in the country.

OK, I'll argue....

CH in Penticton has been coasting on a 50 year old reputation for about 40 years. In fairness, they were one of the first, and they were also one of the more organized to develop a proper syllabus and cadre of specialized instructors. They can charge 30% more than anyone else and on the basis of an international reputation still get some good contracts (like Dutch police - just in case someone ever builds a mountain there).

They put on a good mountain course for foreign governments with surplus budgets. Local operators in BC might have the opinion that in a time-is-money environment there are more efficient ways to handle a helicopter in the mountains, and in fact all local operators have developed their own mountain courses that are more aligned with what is actually done to earn a living in the mountains. Some of the BC flying schools have also developed some serious mountain flying courses that are recognized by certification agencies.

Last I checked, a good mountain course in BC was about 20 hours on a Jetranger at close to $1000/hr. The NZ courses I came across were still using pistons, so I can't compare. Terrain is pretty similar. Nobody can afford accidents, and you need to be carded to work for the Forest Service, so there's enough self-policing within the industry to make sure you are ready.

malabo

Have you done the Penticton Mountain Course?

I did some mountain training at Wanaka Helicopters a couple of years ago There's a post in the archives here. I have a PPL and haven't done any mountain training anywhere else so can't compare. I rated them & would happily go back to them. Then they had a collection of R22s, at least one R44 and used a Squirrel of some sort for SAR.
Hope this helps.

A mountain course is a requirement in NZ for your commercial and private licences so pretty much all training establishments will offer some sort of course but these dont need to be done in the mountains ( I know strange) so head to the south island (mountains up to 13000 ft).
Most of the training is done in piston heli (most are 22's at $450-$550/hr most 44's are $1000+/hr) you can hire turbine gear (both B206 or MD500 are readily avalible every where from $1250-$1600/hr).
As far as specific places go Wanaka Heli is good as is Garden city in Christchurch Try Heliventures in Haast great location and good people think they have an instructor on board full time.
Hope this all helps take care
Dan

Thanks for the replies, I guess if the course content and standard between Canada and NZ is similar, then the deciding factor comes down to the $Aus exchange rate?

Mountain flying tips ???
 

Does anyone know of an easily accessible list of mountain flying tips.
Also, is there anywhere in Europe that does a good condensed mountain flying course?

Cheers.

Canadian Helicopters has had a course for years that was pretty highly acclaimed. Jan Rustad, who is mentioned in the article, has been at the game for many years. Its worth the trip over and maybe cheaper than anything in Europe.

Mountain flying courses
 

I know that Rise Helicopters regularly do mountain flying courses in Wales as well as Formation Flying courses.

Their Chief pilot is James Kenwright and they also have great ex military instructors who specialise in these courses.

They are based in Gloucestershire

As someone that did the Canadian Helicopters full mountain course in 2004 and has received annual recurrent mountain training every year since then from their staff, I think the Penticton operation is fantastic -- both the curriculum and and the instructors. Just in April, I had the pleasure of flying with Mel Schiller of Canadian Helicopters in a 407 for a few days. Anyone that believes Canadian Helicopters is coasting, probably hasn't had the experience of flying with Mel or their other capable instructors. You will be fully challenged.

Canadian Helicopters is to mountain training what the Bell Academy is to emergency training. I couldn't imagine operating a helicopter in a mountainous environment without their training, and I seriously doubt anyone that has received this training from the Penticton operation would feel differently.

That's what I found to be very useful:

Helicopter Pilot's Handbook Of Mountain Flying & Advanced Techniques
(Airlife Pilot's Handbooks) (Paperback)

Table of contents available at Amazon.com too. It's just below 100 pages but contains all you need to know. First read then get some training with somebody experienced.

Amazon.com: Helicopter Pilot's Handbook Of Mountain Flying & Advanced Techniques (Airlife Pilot's Handbooks): Norman Bailey: Books

Almost all (if not all) schools in Switzerland offer the Swiss mountain rating and are willing to give some accelerated training without the rating if you are in a rush.

?
 

Okay,

Will someone please tell how how a "formation flying" course will benefit an operational pilot?

Good Lord!?

RH

I've heard of Welsh coming from "The Valleys", but never "the Mountains". Do they have mountains in Wales? As far as New Zealand goes, there are no establishments that specialise in mountain training, but as mentioned earlier all establishments offer mountain training. Wouldn't go to Christchurch though, the mountains are 20 minutes away. Wanaka is one of the better options.

hmmmm, that might not be a completely accurate statement there dragman. As a former NZ mountain (slab-wing) driver, NZWF-based, it is hard for me to imagine anyone being more "specialised" than those pilots that are in the mountains from the moment their wheels/skids leave the ground! Pilots in the NZWF/NZQN/NZTZ (not to mention NZMC and the West Coast) area probably spend 95%+ of their airborne time in the mountains and have been heard to mention how "naked" they feel without mountains/valleys in immediate proximity.

Whilst the fling-wing trainers in the area probably market themselves less as mountain specialists than helicopter trainers, as others have mentioned the mountain training is a required part of the NZ syllabus. Some "specialisation" must be assumed. Operators of the likes of Southern Lakes, Over theTop and Wanaka Helicopters amongst numerous others spring straight to mind, as do pilots like Billy Black, Hannibal Hayes, the Hollows boys, Simon Spencer-Bower and many others (I could write page after page!) -specialist mountain helicopter pilots all.

The Wakatipu Aero Club in NZQN offers the only specialist mountain flying course offered in the country (to the best of my knowledge) and whilst that course is designed and operated around slab-wing pilots, the techniques of safely and competently operating in the mountains are the same -with the addition of those activities unique to helicopter operations.

True, all the operators you mentioned have pilots with a wealth of mountain experience, but how many of them have had training other than that which is required by the CPL syllabus? The training they've received is through experience. With the exception of Wanaka Helicopters, the operators you have mentioned only train their own pilots.

Wanaka helicopters' main interest, I believe, is training AB initio to CPL. Their instructors are very experienced in the area and it's well worth considering them for some mountain flying training.