Westland 30: TC revoked
 

From Aviation International News.

In a highly unusual move, the FAA revoked the type certificate for the UK-built Westland 30 helicopters, after Westland helicopter returned the TC for the defunct line to Britain's Civil Aviation Authority.

The CAA susequently asked the FAA to revoke it's TC for the aircraft. There were 9 examples of the this helicopter listed in the US registry, but they had been purchased by Westland and were reportedly in the process of being destroyed at press time.

The Westland 30 gained some limited success in the difficult scheduled helicopter airline sector, but accidents and various mechanical woes soon caused operators to lose confidence in the aircraft.

I was at a well known helicopter base in the mid eighties when a "Wardrobe" was brought in for the day. They offered free rides to anyone who wanted to fly it. Unfortunately it had a reputation...After no-one accepted our boss tried to order people to go in it.

Me? My old back injury suddenly got worse again and I ran all the way home.

There are times when people who have no experience of an aircraft either in terms of flying it or its pluses and minuses should not comment on it.
The W30 was limited in range, and due to RR fly by the hour engine costs, eventually too expensive to operate.
However, on the Penzance to Scillies scheduled service it was the aircraft of choice by many passengers, the alternative being the S61.
On North Sea operations,its' good points were its' large square boxlike passenger cabin in which most men could stand up and walk about, and its excellent baggage hold in terms of capacity and shape.
I flew it for several years and enjoyed it very much. There was no doubt that the aircraft was under-developed in terms of auto stabilisation, autopilot, and powerplant.
However, had the money been available to develop the Series 3 version of this aircraft it may well have been very successful. For £90million more we could have had a 150Knot, 550 nm range helicopter which could carry 17 pax and their baggage. The money was not available unfortunately.
Even in its relatively under-developed state, I had now qualms about flying it,and neither did my colleagues as far as I am aware.
RBS

RBS,

Aren't you a little over sensitive?

Which comment about "your" aircraft are you objecting to?

[This message has been edited by ShyTorque (edited 19 August 2000).]

I am objecting to the implication on one post that people flew in the aircraft with some trepidation due to its "reputation". In fact it was well thought of as a Southern North Sea work horse. It did not have the range to operate on the Northern North Sea.
It had few incidents and no accidents on the British Southern North Sea. It had an accident in India due to incorrect operation of the aircraft, and there were problems in India with the engines due to compressor damage caused by FOD. The Series 3 W30 was to have different engines-the excellent T800.
The only notewothy incident of which I am aware was caused when a wheel fell off whilst taxying at a major airport. Since the same undercarriage design is used on the Islander, that was something that could have happened to a number of aircraft and not just the W30.
My objections are based on the tone and implications of the previous posts.
I was very sad for the UK helicopter aviation industry when the W30 series 3 helicopter was not certificated and entered into service.

RBS, you are the only one so far to have stated its problem areas / criticised it. What I stated was fact. On that day no-one wished to fly in it. I was one of them.

We knew it was a political move to get some cheap PR for the aircraft due to its lack of sales. We didn't see it having a military role at that time.

Its reputation had come about because of the lack of development of its "autostab, autopilot, powerplant" and the fact that India no longer wished to use it. Just as you have stated.

It did look like a wardrobe, though.

When the EH-I01 visited, we all wanted a go.

Loosen up? :)

------------------
May the Force be with you - and may Gravity treat you gently..

Skycop,
The W30 was universally known on the North Sea as "The Shed". I admit to being defensive about the "shed" because I regard its demise as a good British aviation opportunity lost due to lack of finance.
A TSR2 of the rotary world perhaps.

RBS,

You are, methinks, correct.

Fairey Rotordyne too? Also broken up and few, if any, traces of it left.



------------------
May the Force be with you - and may Gravity treat you gently..

Skycop
for everyones' information, I repeat the fact that G-BKGD( a W30 affectionately known as
GLADYS)carried many hundreds (maybe a few thousand) pax back and forth to the Scillies for some years without any problems other than minor things that you might expect on any aircraft. Those of us that flew it hold the W30 in some affection. We were all sorry to see GLADYS go dueto lack of further engine availablity.
RBS

Skycop

When I was elsewhere working on a local airfield. A landmark now the rubbish burning pit (and not slagging off here just a statement of fact since I'm too young to ever see one flying and this was how the area ended up)was known on as the Rotordyne site so the name lived on. History lives on. And the old boys remember they days,who knows what would be by now. DOH

Good Aircraft in its time for SNS ops, defects on early models included (G-OGAS) airframe cracks, went back to Westland on a low loader. Either G-AS or G-WY had a stabliser break and drop down. Early GEM100 engines had to be changed frequently. Good for passengers, and v-good for freight.

5711..

I sense some nostalgia here. for a look at the examples held by the Helicopter Museum in Weston-super-Mud, go here :
http://www.helicoptermuseum.co.uk/westland.htm

5711n,
I was the pilot of the W30 that had a stabiliser drop down from its usual position although it did not fall off. I did not know anything about it until I landed at North Denes and the local Ops man told me about it over the radio. If memory serves me correctly, this happened twice to 2 different aircraft. A simple agricultural fix ended all further problems of that kind.
GOGAS did indeed have a titanium strap break. The aircraft was engaged in the building of the Rough field at the time, and we were doing one minute sectors from platform to ship and back with max load in one direction. At the time each pax was deemed to weigh 165lbs. In fact they weighed a lot more than that as it turned out. Anyway, another agricultural fix put that problem right.
RBS

Westland 30
 

Anyone have any experience of the Westland 30?

Answers on a postcard...................:D

I would be interested to have the opinion of someone who did fly it. I know that when used for offshore work by British Airways on the east coast it was well liked by the rig workers, largely due to internal cabin space. Maintenance seemed to be a problem with the engines being particularly susceptable to FO damage.

The biggest problem seemed to be that Westlands had little comprehension of how to support a civil helicopter operation.

With their attempts to market the EH101 I can only hope they have improoved.

It was reported at the time that its failure was due to low power and they didn't get the bigger engines (as in the 30-300 model) out early enough. They made 40, and the type certificate is now withdrawn anyway - at Westland's request when someone in the UK reimported a dozen or so from India expecting to be able to "remanufacture" them and get them flying.

didn't it feature in an episode of "silent witness" many moons ago?

Yes, a W30 was in an episode. And also a hulk of one was in an episode of Peak Practice, or something similar, doing duty as the downed remains of a Lynx.

And if you want to see some for real, go to the Helicopter Museum in Weston-super-Mare - only decent thing there, and you can leave the other half shopping at Cribbs Causeway on the way down.

Didn't Omniflight operate some for a while as an airport shuttle ?.

http://www.helispot.com/photos/03299.html

found this.

In the US, Airspur had three in the LA area (white/orange), Omniflight operated the PanAm one - link as above, and Chicago Airlink had 3 or 4 in these colours
http://www.helispot.com/photos/00752.html

but I don't think they were all delivered. Little odd to me that this photo was taken in NYC and the description says "Pan Am" when it obviously isn't in their colours.

Details on the ones in the museum at Weston-super-mare are near the bottom of this page
http://www.helicoptermuseum.co.uk/co...n/westland.htm
although they don't admit there to the other 4 or 5 they have available for "swaps" which are rotting away in the salty Atlantic air.

Westland 30
 

For my sins, I was the Project pilot for BAH in January 1982. As far as I can remember we had no problems bringing into service although the limited range made it difficult to operate in the northern sector, although in the southern gasfields it was okay, and the cabin was liked by our "customers". I think the real problem with the 30 was that Westlands were falling over themselves to have a viable "presence" in the North Sea as a launch platform for sales overseas, but were giving the aircraft away for next to nothing - ref the Airspur and Indian orders - and when BAH wanted more spares, Westland upped the costs so much that it became completely uneconomic to operate - anyway I left BAH in 1983, taking the money and avoiding Mr Maxwell !!! - so I'm only surmising the final outcome - and yes, I've seen them all gently rotting away in Somerset - very sad.

RE the demise of the type. I believe that they were withdrawn from use in the UK not because of Westland, but because Rolls-Royce stopped supporting the engines in the normal way i.e. PBH (power by the hour). The new payment scheme meant that they were no longer a commercially viable option for BIH. The american aircraft were sitting in a hangar in Tucson at this time and I think The Pawan Hans Indian machines had also been grounded by the Indian CAA, their grounding being another story....:eek:


Variable Load

Wobbly 30?

Fine machine, tell yer Mam -

what was it Terry Squires said?
"the only machine I've ever flown in where you bite the sandwich and it chews it for you"

Donks not really robust enough to swallow minor dust from tarmac without damage; & used to eat accessory drive pinions for breakfast, pain in the butt to do engine work offshore 'cos the cowlings were removed in slabs & not hinged to the airframe (try taking one off in 30kt wind - what do you do when you're stood 8 feet up on a 6" ledge with a 4' x 2' panel in your hand?)

Lovely low floor, doddle to load, floats a pain to pack, tailplane support struts/bearings weak, T/R balance charts written backwards in one axis, nasty airframe fuel filters, whoopsie with the forward ring frame... good old titanium doublers!

Shame about the 30, much nicer to work on than the S76 (regardless of model)

Even doubled as a RAF Puma for a BBC docudrama about troops in Ireland - never did get the scratches out of the windows after the film crew scrubbed off the emulsion paint with steel wool (sorry KATE)

Last saw G-KATE in the BIH hangar in 1989 looked v sad.
Attended a management meeting at the time with the Admiral
at which it was suggested that the 30 could be put back into service!!!!
Mind you at the time BIH were operating their heavy 76A's and wre considering everything including Dauphin and 412.

Rob L;

That would be the same Admiral that had the bright idea of putting G-BCEB on to the Penzance/Scillies run during his inspection of same during respray into BIH colours at Beccles?

"would be useful with those extra seats and forward airstair"
"yes, Chief, that's why it's been there for the last 25 years"
"Oh, good show"

Dear old Jock must be rolling....

ppheli wrote:

No worries. N112WG was the WG-30 demonstrator that was used for only a short time until Omniflight got the regular bird (N4499N) outfitted and painted. It may have even been the backup a/c but me memory is as foggy as LHR in the morning.

Operating Costs
 

Regarding the comment on operating costs, we worked out towards the end it was cheaper to undersling the loaded '30 under one of our BV234s and accept the lower operating cost!

And in passing I remember being in the Aberdeen crewroom when we were demo'ing the 30 to local customers. I did point out gently (and sotto voce) to the assembled pilots that my disposable payload to the Magnus in the 234 for the trip I was planning at the same time was higher than the MAUW of the 30...........



;)

Ah yes, I also remember G KATE, and G OGAS and G BIWY which was nicknamed "Winkee Wanky" by the AFISOs at North Denes (a fine bunch of Bristow guys who used to keep the whole SNS de conflicted in the days when Coltishall was closed and Anglia Radar was but a distant dream)

I digress, I am missing a W30 here, because there was 4 of them I think, was it G BKGD?

It could have been such a good machine with some development, and dynamic improvements.

The same admiral indeed!!!!!!!
Also had a conversation with him (one sided, largely due to me being speechless) on the Bell 48!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

I remember suggesting that going into big Bells or Dauphins was going to be difficult as Bristow and Bond had a head start.
I suggested selling the existing S76 and buying newer lighter aircraft giving a performance increase while maintaining crew and engineering continuity plus an existing spares holding.
DIdn't get much response to that.

BKGD was indeed the 4th (and most reliable) - Gladys by her other name...

Believe she went to PZE to support BCEB with the other 3 acting as Christmas trees and lasted 2 or 3 years, but I was history by then.... :)

Westland 30
 

A few weeks ago someone was asking about the Westland 30.
I was unable to reply because I was about to leave for abroad and have only just returned. Did you find out what you wanted or,if not, can I be of assistance? I have a couple of thousand hours or more on this helicopter and I was both a technical pilot and training captain on the type when it was operated by by BAH/BIH.

Yes, all information received and understood but thanks for the offer!!

What did you think of the helo - could it of been used to replace the Puma/Wessex for the MoD?:p

Hello,
sorry about the delay in replying. I had no experience of the W.30 in a military role, but I suspect it would not have succeeded in the military role in the form we had it, i.e, short range with F.O.D. sensitive engines. However I believe the Series 3 with the more powerful American Engines(T.800?) with a much greater range, greater M.T.O.W. and payload, 150knot cruise and crash resistance fuselage would have made an excellent machine for both military and civil North Sea operations assuming it lived up to the hype. Unfortunately the lack of about £90 million to develope the machine, and perhaps the military timescale involved, killed it off. It did fly some test flights at Westlands I believe, but I don't know how well it did. If they had had the money and the time to fully develope it then I believe it would have been able to win both military and civil approval and would have sold well. Big 'if' of course.

A few years ago, there was a thread on the Westland 30 which has now been closed so can't post these pictures into it. Apparently, someone was planning to import the ex Indian machines to the UK and re commence operations. Seems to me they may have some work to do.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...G303Medium.jpg

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...G302Medium.jpg

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...G301Medium.jpg

Sad pictures :sad:

OK, I'll bite. Why were the Indian ones grounded?

WG 30
 

You can also find one, from I believe the USA, on the PETANS helideck at their safety & survival centre on the North Side of Norwich Airport.
with fraternal greetings, ambi
PS: The main rotor blades are not quite correct though!:ok:

Omniflight operations
 

Omniflight operated 3 W30 with the Gem 60 and 3 W30 with the Gem 40 engines for PAN AM and UNITED. The airframe was great for the shuttle operation but with 24 engines for the gem 60's helicopters, we could not keep the helicopter in the air. When we shut the airline down, there was one helicopter still running and 22 engines in the shop. Hard to operate with that kind of reliability.

Personally, I don't like the look of the VIP seating and table at the front of the static display (pic 1). People always blow smoke in one's face when in club configuration. Not that they wouldn't be more comfortable than seating in some modern economy classes.

also fraternally,

DD

Went to see it at Yeovil when it was being considered for the military - Westlands rep seemed generally puzzled when we asked where the hardpoints were, where a hook and winch could be fitted, how could the ground clearance be inproved to allow landings in unprepared sites etc. His answer 'you must remember it's designed for the civil market'. Why wardrobe? Looks good, but when you fill it up it can't be moved.