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-   -   AW169 Rollover (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/639524-aw169-rollover.html)

Fareastdriver 31st Mar 2021 09:12


Anyway, as we approach the Puma’s 50th anniversary in RAF service.....at least they fitted decent engines a decade or so ago
Still the only helicopter in the world where the pilots have to crawl over the jump seat to get into the cockpit; the perfectly serviceable cockpit entry doors being mandated as to be permanently locked in 1972.

ShyTorque 31st Mar 2021 11:35

FED, agreed - yet to properly secure the aircraft for the night, the cabin doors had to be P stropped to the internal structure! In my younger, snake hipped and athletic days, I used to fit the last strop then exit the aircraft via the cockpit window (I think Iíd need hospital treatment if I tried that these days).

sycamore 31st Mar 2021 12:05

A/Spatiale, as was,used to get their door locks from the Renault/Citroen car factory across the motorway in Marignane..

megan 1st Apr 2021 03:27

First I've heard of a nose wheel type having a locking system, S-76 doesn't, explanation please as to why the difference?

Sir Korsky 1st Apr 2021 03:43


Originally Posted by megan (Post 11020179)
First I've heard of a nose wheel type having a locking system, S-76 doesn't, explanation please as to why the difference?

The 76 has a damper so you can run it on at 60 knots and you'll not get a potentially damaging shimmy wobble. Fast run on landings in the 169 and 139 require the nose wheel locked. There is an electronic locking pin which secures the nose wheel in place. On touch down, you'll need to hit the unlock button on the gear panel to release the locking pin to taxi. Attempting to steer with high torque settings and the nose wheel locked can cause damage to the whole nose gear locking pin installation. The whole nose wheel assembly is a weak point on these machines, especially for towing. 76 undercarriage is bullet proof. The Augusta systems are far more delicate.

megan 1st Apr 2021 05:53

Thanks SK. :ok: Is attempt at structure weight saving why they have gone the locking route?

ShyTorque 1st Apr 2021 06:48


Originally Posted by Sir Korsky (Post 11020181)
76 undercarriage is bullet proof

As long as you put the pins in before towing; due to the design needing hydraulic pressure to stay locked. I think all AW helis have mechanical down locks which donít need pinning for towing.

Having flown both types, I prefer having a locking nose wheel, but then even some Sikorskys had them. The type I trained on actually had TWO! The Puma also has one.





212man 1st Apr 2021 12:03


76 undercarriage is bullet proof.
Hardly - they don't like pot holes much!

First I've heard of a nose wheel type having a locking system, S-76 doesn't, explanation please as to why the difference?
Typically used for fast running landing (such as TR malfunction) and moving helidecks. Same as a tail wheel lock (S61).

[email protected] 1st Apr 2021 13:50

And stopping the aircraft rotating during rotor start and shut down.

etudiant 1st Apr 2021 17:51

Presumably these kinds of accidents are fairly common.
Certainly there are a number of somewhat similar cases here on PPRN, some involving dollies, but all with attempted maneuvers very near ground.
Does the training have a special syllabus for these?

Sir Korsky 1st Apr 2021 18:18


Originally Posted by ShyTorque (Post 11020245)
As long as you put the pins in before towing; due to the design needing hydraulic pressure to stay locked. I think all AW helis have mechanical down locks which don’t need pinning for towing.

Yup, and when it's -30C out at night and you're on your back under the 139 nosewheel, trying to align up that ******* manual locking pin in the guide hole for the 17th time so it can get towed into the hangar - this brings you immense joy I can tell you. Never had such problems on the 76.

( These Augusta aircraft require another manual locking pin which must be physically inserted before towing that feeble nosewheel. This is to prevent the tow bar being attached and the aircraft towed with the electronic nose wheel actuator inadvertently fastened in the lock position. There are expensive sheer bolts fabricated into the tow bar to help prevent this from happening by fatigued flight and ground crews. The emergency gear down is fluid operated though and will lock into place once activated. Easy fix for the mechanic, unlike the 76. )

megan 2nd Apr 2021 03:30


Typically used for fast running landing (such as TR malfunction) and moving helidecks
Never ever had any issues with the 76 on moving helidecks, nor heard of problems. What issues prevail, besides forgetting to lock the brakes?

Only tail wheel locking type I flew was the H-34, locking was only required on parking, running take off/landing or doing an auto. Any student who broke a pin was required to wear it on a lanyard around the neck for a week, I reckon it should have been the instructor who wore it as all trips were dual - inadequate supervision. :p

PlasticCabDriver 2nd Apr 2021 18:50


Originally Posted by Fareastdriver (Post 11019719)
Still the only helicopter in the world where the pilots have to crawl over the jump seat to get into the cockpit; the perfectly serviceable cockpit entry doors being mandated as to be permanently locked in 1972.

S-92 cockpit accessed through the cabin as well. Often accompanied by the back of the life jacket switching something in the overhead panel on or off.

helicrazi 2nd Apr 2021 18:59


Originally Posted by PlasticCabDriver (Post 11021271)
S-92 cockpit accessed through the cabin as well. Often accompanied by the back of the life jacket switching something in the overhead panel on or off.

Jackpot when you manage both AC Gens whilst getting in the LHS. Real great.

sycamore 2nd Apr 2021 20:55

Personally I think for a tactical troop aircraft the undercarriages of the AW and Bell are totally wrong with `pi%$y little high pressure tyres,and nosewheels that are likely to `dig-in` on first contact with any `soft` surface in any `tactical run-on..even your FLIR/optics turret is very vulnerable under the nose...They should have skids,,or wheels like the MH-60/AH64 /or Wessex...might be `retro and not aesthetically pleasing,but dynamically much better for `agricultural` driving...not like `ReliantRobins`.....

Hat,coat,big watch......

helicrazi 3rd Apr 2021 06:14


Originally Posted by sycamore (Post 11021311)
Personally I think for a tactical troop aircraft the undercarriages of the AW and Bell are totally wrong with `pi%$y little high pressure tyres,and nosewheels that are likely to `dig-in` on first contact with any `soft` surface in any `tactical run-on..even your FLIR/optics turret is very vulnerable under the nose...They should have skids,,or wheels like the MH-60/AH64 /or Wessex...might be `retro and not aesthetically pleasing,but dynamically much better for `agricultural` driving...not like `ReliantRobins`.....

Hat,coat,big watch......

Most are available with skids, 169 skid version now available

Fareastdriver 3rd Apr 2021 09:25

What I should have said was that of the 1,000 plus Pumas and Super Pumas produced the 23 operated by the RAF have their doors permanently locked. Over the last fifty years the rest seem to be perfectly happy with their pilots getting in and out of the doors designed for the purpose.

ShyTorque 3rd Apr 2021 10:29

Goodness knows who brought the rule in but I’d put money on it being an engineering officer.

sycamore 3rd Apr 2021 13:58

D120A might be along to comment......

Fareastdriver 3rd Apr 2021 17:33

Yes it was. The same SEO that suggested have the undercarriage locked down to avoid the nosewheel jack overunning. Curing by putting a restrictor in the down hydraulic circuit.


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