Another low flying fairground incident.
Surely not a Robinson still doing tour flights at 11.00pm.......LIVINGSTON PARISH- Residents in Livingston Parish expressed concern late Tuesday night when they reportedly spotted a helicopter flying so low they were sure it was on its way to crashing.
The calls to emergency personnel came in around 11 p.m., some saying they'd seen the helicopter flying extremely low near the Parish fairgrounds, which are off Florida Boulevard near North Range Road. Some told first responders they also heard a loud noise and assumed the helicopter had crashed. The helicopter did not crash, according to representatives with the Livingston Parish Sheriff's Office. Early Wednesday morning, the Sheriff's Office confirmed that the helicopter landed safely in Hammond with no injuries. Some believe the loud noise Livingston eyewitnesses heard was due to the helicopter hitting a few trees. At this time, the identity of the individual manning the helicopter and the organization the aircraft may be affiliated with remain unknown. At times, helicopters are legally allowed to fly lower than other aircraft as it’s much easier for them to perform emergency landings than it is for other aircrafts. In addition to this, they’re often used by law enforcement and emergency medical service agencies, requiring a bit of leeway from the Federal Aviation Authority (FAA) |
Here, maybe this will liven it up for ya?
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Forgive the stupid question but are commercial operations allowed at night on single engines in the U.S.A.?
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Originally Posted by ApolloHeli
(Post 10866267)
Forgive the stupid question but are commercial operations allowed at night on single engines in the U.S.A.?
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Originally Posted by Gordy
(Post 10866304)
There are no stupid questions, but the answer is yes.....why would a twin be required?
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In Oz, night charter is in a twin, and the pilot must hold an instrument rating.
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Forgive the stupid question but are commercial operations allowed at night on single engines in the U.S.A.? https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/61...ight-quiz.html for me now as it was then it’s all about the stabilisation not the number of engines. |
Originally Posted by ApolloHeli
(Post 10866311)
Here in Europe singles aren't allowed to be used for Commercial Air Transport operations at night. Anything single and rotary after civil twilight generally can only be private.
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Originally Posted by Robbiee
(Post 10866349)
Is engine failure your number one cause of accidents there? Ours is wire strikes (second by weather, I believe) which don't care how many engines you have.
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I believe that the reason behind the regulation is that originally helicopters all had piston engines, which were less reliable than they are today. The rule was made and never revoked, despite engines becoming more reliable.
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What is a low flying fairground?
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Originally Posted by Robbiee
(Post 10866349)
Is engine failure your number one cause of accidents there? Ours is wire strikes (second by weather, I believe) which don't care how many engines you have.
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Originally Posted by Robbiee
(Post 10866349)
Is engine failure your number one cause of accidents there? Ours is wire strikes (second by weather, I believe) which don't care how many engines you have.
In dense urban environments there is little margin for error and a low probability of a forced landing that can be safely done without damage to people and property, and magically redundant powerplants help reduce that risk. Since most traffic is commercial in rotorwing the regulations probably make sense to those that make the regs. That pilots have a habit of flying into things doesn't negate the concept of probability. Low flying is a regular killer, so cowboy operators that make their livelihoods by offering thrill rides to uninformed members of the public, are just riding the statistical curve towards a smoking hole in the ground. Still, it's a great way to generate ongoing demand for Frank and co. :} |
Originally Posted by John R81
(Post 10866616)
I believe that the reason behind the regulation is that originally helicopters all had piston engines, which were less reliable than they are today. The rule was made and never revoked, despite engines becoming more reliable.
From a design and manufacturing perspective components are possibly of a more consistent quality, but failures almost always end up due to poor or lack of maintenance, or poor installation. The human aspects have not changed. The volumes of flight hours have increased, as has urban density so if anything the risks are greater now than they were before. |
Originally Posted by Robbiee
(Post 10866349)
Is engine failure your number one cause of accidents there? Ours is wire strikes (second by weather, I believe) which don't care how many engines you have.
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Apolloheli:
Anything single and rotary after civil twilight generally can only be private. |
Originally Posted by chopjock
(Post 10866651)
What is a low flying fairground?
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the regulations probably make sense to those that make the regs As with the government's response to Covid, the common man is disadvantaged and has to obey |
Originally Posted by Bell_ringer
(Post 10866697)
Low flying is a regular killer, so cowboy operators that make their livelihoods by offering thrill rides to uninformed members of the public, are just riding the statistical curve towards a smoking hole in the ground.
It's been a very sad year around here: all of the fairs and other events that would normally have enjoyed a helicopter ride concession have been cancelled due to the pandemonium :( |
Originally Posted by aa777888
(Post 10866877)
How does that have anything to do with the operation that was described in the original post, which, other than occurring in the vicinity of a fairground, almost certainly had nothing to do with fairs or helicopter ride concessions?
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Originally Posted by Bell_ringer
(Post 10866883)
apart from low-flying? Very little.
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Originally Posted by Bell_ringer
(Post 10866697)
Low flying is a regular killer, so cowboy operators that make their livelihoods by offering thrill rides to uninformed members of the public, are just riding the statistical curve towards a smoking hole in the ground. Still, it's a great way to generate ongoing demand for Frank and co. :} ,...still not quite sure why he'd have to add a second engine to do those thrill rides after the sun goes down though? Unless maybe star light causes engines to sputter? |
Originally Posted by Robbiee
(Post 10866912)
still not quite sure why he'd have to add a second engine to do those thrill rides after the sun goes down though? Unless maybe star light causes engines to sputter?
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Originally Posted by tigerinthenight
(Post 10866927)
I'm no helicopter pilot, but presumably it's considerably harder to pick a safe landing site and perform an autorotation into it when you can't see it?
Of course if you believe you have superior skills and are keen to find opportunities to display them, then a little nighttime auto won’t be top of mind. |
Originally Posted by tigerinthenight
(Post 10866927)
I'm no helicopter pilot, but presumably it's considerably harder to pick a safe landing site and perform an autorotation into it when you can't see it?
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Originally Posted by Robbiee
(Post 10866984)
I'm just wondering why my engine is now suddenly more likely to fail just because the sun has gone down?
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I don’t fly twins and have crossed my fair share of dense urban areas, generally I opt for a wider route where there are more golf courses and sports fields, not because I lack confidence in Rolls Royce but because the idea of negotiating powerlines, railways, streetlamps, bridges, telecom towers, people, cars and buildings (to name a few), when by the time you’ve spotted them you are committed, does not fill me with excitement.
Doing it at night into a black hole, less so. At those moments, I would happily have a second engine onboard. It is unsurprising that in some parts of the world, authorities have made that a requirement. When someone does get hurt, as rare as it may be, they have to answer to Joe public who does not care what you are flying and generally considers anything flying above an unnecessary threat. Palookas doing stupid things in aircraft, just motivate bureaucrats to create more regulations that ruin it for everyone else. |
Originally Posted by tigerinthenight
(Post 10866992)
I don't wish to come across as blunt, but are you deliberately missing the point? Nobody is suggesting that the reason it is prohibited is because of an increased chance of engine failure at night - they are suggesting that a night-time engine failure in the dark is considerably more likely to end badly than if it occurred during the day - considerably enough so that the authorities deem the risk to be too great.
There are plenty of places that even in the daytime are gonna result in a crash (no matter how good your auto skills are) if you have an engine fail over them,...do they require a twin as well? |
Originally Posted by Robbiee
(Post 10867027)
That logic just seems backwards and unrealistically overly cautious to me. At night you alter your flight path (if you can) to a "more favorable to forced landing areas" one, but to be flying around and suddenly now that its dark I have to go back home and jump in a twin is ridiculous!
There are plenty of places that even in the daytime are gonna result in a crash (no matter how good your auto skills are) if you have an engine fail over them,...do they require a twin as well? Authorities have decided that what you consider acceptable for risk is irrelevant and have, rightly or wrongly, set the bar higher for everyone else’s safety. you will forgive them for not taking your word about how talented you are. |
Originally Posted by Robbiee
(Post 10867063)
Gee, what smugness.
Say, does someone have to come along and hold your hand when you walk out to your twin at night,...'cause you know, is dark and you could slip and fall? :{ |
Originally Posted by Robbiee
(Post 10867027)
That logic just seems backwards and unrealistically overly cautious to me. At night you alter your flight path (if you can) to a "more favorable to forced landing areas" one, but to be flying around and suddenly now that its dark I have to go back home and jump in a twin is ridiculous!
There are plenty of places that even in the daytime are gonna result in a crash (no matter how good your auto skills are) if you have an engine fail over them,...do they require a twin as well? |
Originally Posted by tigerinthenight
(Post 10867116)
When you're driving do you refuse to wear a seat belt because you fail to see how wearing a seat belt stops you from crashing?
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Originally Posted by ApolloHeli
(Post 10867119)
I just want to point out private flight at night in singles is still allowed. I'm not sure if that was misunderstood, but the regulation is only for commercial operations where paying passengers are aboard (a rich guy with his own personal paid pilot wouldn't fall under the regulation btw). If you're flying around in your R22 for fun, assuming it's got the right kit for NVFR, you're happy to continue regardless of daylight.
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Ok - put your hands up if you have done an auto at night to the hover - on an airfield where everything is level and clear.
Now keep your hands up if you have done an auto to the hover off airfield. Anyone scared themselves sh*tless yet? Now imagine it happening at an unplanned moment where you have to select a suitable landing area in the dark AND THEN carry out an EOL you can walk away from. Does anyone still not get why it is more risky at night??? |
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 10867181)
Ok - put your hands up if you have done an auto at night to the hover - on an airfield where everything is level and clear.
Now keep your hands up if you have done an auto to the hover off airfield. Anyone scared themselves sh*tless yet? Now imagine it happening at an unplanned moment where you have to select a suitable landing area in the dark AND THEN carry out an EOL you can walk away from. Does anyone still not get why it is more risky at night??? If I were to ever get a job giving rides in a single at night, exactly what are my odds of having an engine failure at night? |
exactly what are my odds of having an engine failure at night Now imagine it happening at an unplanned moment where you have to select a suitable landing area in the dark AND THEN carry out an EOL you can walk away from |
Originally Posted by megan
(Post 10867290)
No body is much interested in the odds of a night engine failure, they're interested in your ability to get them on the ground in one piece. With all the lights on the Vegas strip you can hardly call it "night", try out in the middle of the GAFA on a moonless night.
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with the landing light pre positioned to hopefully give you enough warning for a pitch pull, not knowing if you were going into trees or a clear area. Look ahead and die visually, GCA out... |
Hmm, just how many people have their hands up? Does this happen so often that at least 50% of pilots now have their hands up? In all the years single engine helicopters have been giving rides over the Vegas strip at night (and there's a lot of them) how many of those pilots have their hands up? If you haven't trained to do night autos - at least to the hover - what are your chances of safely executing the manoeuvre? And it doesn't have to be just engine failure - a TR failure or a fire for instance, would put you in the same position of needing to get on the ground really quickly. Generally guys who fly twins have had practice in a simulator doing all these things - how many single engine pilots get that extra training? I reckon a night EOL going from the very bright lights of Vegas into a dark parking lot or park would be pretty horrible, with or without a landing lamp. Maybe people doing or advocating night single flying haven't really thought through the extra risks in their libertarian desire for freedom to make money. I wouldn't go night flying in a single without NVG - at least I could see where I was going to crash. |
I have done a lot of night flying in singles, I think you just have to accept that that if something goes wrong that the outcomes are much more likely to be worse !
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