Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie
(Post 10748103)
And The Cousins call it "Sod" anyway, so it must be bad.
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What a difference between UK and USA, over here we always go to the grass not the hard |
Originally Posted by megan
(Post 10748264)
Same in Oz in my experience, always grass in skid equipped, must chew up the skids on hard, or constantly replacing some sort of wear pads.
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Might it be to do with the weight of the aircraft ? I have done over 30 years thousands of EOL's to the grass, biggest ac though has been a 350/355. Also stuck pedals exercises, limited power, have all been sliding across the green grass.
I have always viewed it, that if I was personally jumping off a wall I would always be going for the grass not concrete as it is more forgiving ! |
Over the 45 years I spent in aviation, every touchdown I ever did (and there was a lot), except for one, was to grass. The one to a concrete taxiway generated a lot of sparks from the skid shoes, and comments from the groundies to avoid that in future.
However, comma, I did scare the snot out of myself once when doing autos to grass in a B206 that had pop-out floats. It dug in and rose up on the nose and raised the heart rate somewhat. Engineering inspection needed after that one, but all OK. |
Originally Posted by Gordy
(Post 10748279)
Nope, we have carbide skid shoes. The risk of rollover on grass is too high. We are also doing stuck pedals to the ground, where you may have some minor spin on touchdown---not good on grass. Our Hyd Off maneuvers we bring to a hover, and enter from 100' hover to simulate long lining worse case scenario.
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Same for run on landings, always to pavement. Again much less chance of catching a skid if things get a little sideways.
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The best you can get, autos to water, the most fun to be had
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....a5fafad72f.jpg |
Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie
(Post 10748385)
However, comma, I did scare the snot out of myself once when doing autos to grass in a B206 that had pop-out floats. It dug in and rose up on the nose and raised the heart rate somewhat. Engineering inspection needed after that one, but all OK.
Originally Posted by megan
(Post 10748788)
The best you can get, autos to water, the most fun to be had
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....fd2ff8b6f3.jpg Interesting how Bell Helicopter will only do hard surface: "AUTOROTATION TRAINING: All touchdown auto-rotations shall be completed to a hard, smooth surface to allow every measure of safety while the Customer has the opportunity to learn from each such maneuver. " |
Flew one of those Gordy with the bags, but never got to do autos with the floats.
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Originally Posted by megan
(Post 10748861)
Flew one of those Gordy with the bags, but never got to do autos with the floats.
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Fixed bags are great fun. As Gordy said the “yaw roll” couple can be interesting! I think at night you might be upside down with an engine failure in the cruise before you caught it with the pedals as you will not recover the roll with cyclic in a 206!
Autos to the water are the easiest for sure. Done them in 47, 206 and 205. Gordy, get back to us with your technique at 9500 lbs! You might find the timing is a little different! The 205 A1 being a Transport Category aircraft has landing distances “power off” over a 50’ obstacle published in the RFM. Interesting reading! |
Originally Posted by RVDT
(Post 10748892)
As Gordy said the “yaw roll” couple can be interesting! I think at night you might be upside down with an engine failure in the cruise before you caught it with the pedals as you will not recover the roll with cyclic in a 206!
Originally Posted by RVDT
(Post 10748892)
Gordy, get back to us with your technique at 9500 lbs! You might find the timing is a little different!
I do have a 205A++ and yep, full of people in the back, the zero speed "hang time" would remain the same but the acceleration phase would need to be tad higher. Having said that, ROD may be less due to higher pitch angle to maintain RRPM, but only on my second coffee---would need to think about this a little more...... |
We did autos from 500' hover in the 206 at the Bell Academy, not 100'. It was tricky then. It's really tempting fate to do it from 100'.
Skid gear in grass will work as long as it stays straight. A little too much sideways and the machine is going over in grass, but asphalt lets the instructor feel more comfortable. |
Fascinting to hear all these authoratative N American statements about the hazards of autos to grass- leaving nothing to chance, too much risk of a trip-up, too much hazard etc etc...
I suppose they think that way because as they dont do them they simply don't know the reality...It seems strange that an environment so much more practical aviation minded than Europe can hold such a widespread misapprehension. In UK and afaik most, if not all of Europe autos are invariably done to grass, never, ever to the hard and we have no problems with it. The tripups our transatlantic cousins seem so fearful of simply don't happen. It's perhaps worth notng that many of our airfields where helo training takes place simply don't have hard runways so even if we did spend out on costly skid shoes they wouldn't be much help. We also practice stuck pedal and simulated t/r failure to grass as well. Sure, it requires care to ensure you're straight enough on landing but it works and again we suffer no accidents, so why scrape the **** out of runways and expensice skidshoes unnecessarily? That said, our t/r failure and stuck pedal drills may well be a bit less realistic (or perhaps mpre constrained in the parameters that can be demonstrated) but we do all understand that in the event of a real one we much prefer a hard runway. |
Originally Posted by meleagertoo
(Post 10749034)
I suppose they think that way because as they dont do them they simply don't know the reality...
In UK and afaik most, if not all of Europe autos are invariably done to grass, never, ever to the hard and we have no problems with it. The tripups our transatlantic cousins seem so fearful of simply don't happen.. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....61ca8f36c8.jpg You can see where the skids were not allowed to spread... https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....914a93eb85.jpg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....6dad774e29.jpg
Originally Posted by meleagertoo
(Post 10749034)
Sure, it requires care to ensure you're straight enough on landing but it works and again we suffer no accidents, so why scrape the **** out of runways and expensice skidshoes unnecessarily?
Originally Posted by meleagertoo
(Post 10749034)
but we do all understand that in the event of a real one we much prefer a hard runway.
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Do the skids leave witness marks on hard runways so the QHI can berate you on your fish tailing?
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Originally Posted by meleagertoo
(Post 10749034)
Fascinting to hear all these authoratative N American statements about the hazards of autos to grass- leaving nothing to chance, too much risk of a trip-up, too much hazard etc etc...
I suppose they think that way because as they dont do them they simply don't know the reality...It seems strange that an environment so much more practical aviation minded than Europe can hold such a widespread misapprehension. In UK and afaik most, if not all of Europe autos are invariably done to grass, never, ever to the hard and we have no problems with it. The tripups our transatlantic cousins seem so fearful of simply don't happen. It's perhaps worth notng that many of our airfields where helo training takes place simply don't have hard runways so even if we did spend out on costly skid shoes they wouldn't be much help. We also practice stuck pedal and simulated t/r failure to grass as well. Sure, it requires care to ensure you're straight enough on landing but it works and again we suffer no accidents, so why scrape the **** out of runways and expensice skidshoes unnecessarily? That said, our t/r failure and stuck pedal drills may well be a bit less realistic (or perhaps mpre constrained in the parameters that can be demonstrated) but we do all understand that in the event of a real one we much prefer a hard runway. You wanna see how far you can stick your dick into the H/V Diagram?,...fine!,...just don't ask to borrow my 22 with which to do it! As for doing autos to grass. I always flew around the city so,... What's grass,...? :E |
Originally Posted by Robbiee
(Post 10749105)
You wanna see how far you can stick your dick into the H/V Diagram?,...fine!
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Originally Posted by Gordy
(Post 10749122)
Some of us call it the "Money curve".....lots of money to be made in there.... And yes, even with an R-22.
,...if you sell replacement landing gear. |
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