If Mr Hills owns some really good patented innovations then he may be able to make more money licensing them than actually building and selling whole helicopters. Under this model the helicopters are just sales/proving platforms for his innovations.
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that is why Guimbal is not doing a G4 |
SO how do you KNOW Bruno is not doing a G4?? That building trust and support around the G2 was the only focus that made sense. The point i was trying to make is: there must be a relation between the price of the machine and the likelihood of the company to be around in 10 years. I don't see an unproven manufacturer directly entering in the 1 million dollar range helicopter just because of innovative factors. But they could like Kopter change the way people think about their helicopter (their concept of EC135 performance/space for simplicity of a single engine) that is good for the industry as a whole because it pushes the more establish players to try harder. |
Perhaps we're looking at this wrong. Possibly the plan is, a little like Kopter, to get it far enough along in development that one of the big players comes along and buys it all up for a pot of cash.
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Perhaps we're looking at this wrong. Possibly the plan is, a little like Kopter, to get it far enough along in development that one of the big players comes along and buys it all up for a pot of cash. |
Originally Posted by Agile
(Post 10876535)
Except the big player want to play the higher end of the market, Thus Airbus giving up the H120, saying the segment is not the best use of their capabilities.
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Looks like they're doing their own engine and avionics...
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Apollo
The 120 was a crap helicopter, the 341 which it really replaced was quicker, greater payload and didnt suffer from the C of G issues. as Bruno who was one of the chief designers said it was too fat courtesy of the marketing boys at Airbus |
They really are obsessed with the supercar comparison and taking off from your garden or local parking lot.
Their target customer doesn't seem to be your typical private helicopter bloke. Interesting ideas from a design perspective. They have a lot to do. Aircraft, engine, automation, avionics etc. Best get cracking boys. |
A push/pull collective seems like a bit of a risk - trickier for transition with some serious muscle memory issues unless they get it right.
Fundamentally I push to go down and pull to go up in a helicopter. Be interesting to see how they resolve that Vs a traditional fixed wing throttle. |
Forward and back collective! 214 did that years ago.
Good luck to them. The industry needs some modern thinking for a change. Even the latest cabs are old tech. |
designing their own airframe, engine, drivetrain... that's going to be quite an accomplishment if they can do all of that. Especially in the timeline that they're suggesting!
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All that glass but no opening windows or fresh air scoops designed yet. As soon as the doors are shut, they need aircon running or the occupants melt in the sun. An APU to run aircon might be needed, or else a dose of reality in the designer's Drambuie.
Inventing a new flight control system to go with their new engine and airframe, glad to see they aren't bothering to progress from known steps to unknown, they are just making the Quantum Leap. Oh, boy... |
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Hope the aircon is good. In warm climates an ipad goes thermal in no time.
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Originally Posted by Bell_ringer
(Post 10892290)
Hope the aircon is good. In warm climates an ipad goes thermal in no time.
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The iPad integration is a bit weird but using it instead of Garmin would lower the price. I do like the innovation used through the interior, though not a fan of displays directly in front of the pilot on a helicopter, but maybe they're low and non-obstructive. I hope they successfully make this and it becomes more than CGI.
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Hmmm. That cyclic must have some interesting linkages behind the instrument panel, they would need to be linked to the left side for dual instruction as well. But how to do the collective on the left side in an armrest? Ergo, no dual controls possible.
They brag of having 5 seats full, full-size baggage, and "vast" amounts of fuel for long trips. How many small helos in existence can carry full pax and full fuel and a stash of bags? And where the heck does the fuel go, if the under-floor space has a bunch of folding wheels and the behind-cabin space is full of golf clubs? A VFR machine doesn't need a panel in front of the left seat (no dual controls), and doesn't need such a high "eyebrow" over the panel, apart from shading the iPads. Yes, it looks spoofy. I wonder how many design dreams will have to be left on the drawing board when the reality of building this thing happens. |
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Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie
(Post 10892624)
Hmmm. That cyclic must have some interesting linkages behind the instrument panel, they would need to be linked to the left side for dual instruction as well. But how to do the collective on the left side in an armrest? Ergo, no dual controls possible.
They brag of having 5 seats full, full-size baggage, and "vast" amounts of fuel for long trips. How many small helos in existence can carry full pax and full fuel and a stash of bags? And where the heck does the fuel go, if the under-floor space has a bunch of folding wheels and the behind-cabin space is full of golf clubs? A VFR machine doesn't need a panel in front of the left seat (no dual controls), and doesn't need such a high "eyebrow" over the panel, apart from shading the iPads. Yes, it looks spoofy. I wonder how many design dreams will have to be left on the drawing board when the reality of building this thing happens. Could be fly-by-wire Charles, the tech is mature enough. |
Maybe so, Evil, but the left seat would need an armrest on the left side for the collective, and that would make it a little difficult to heave the body over it for entry. And would still require the fittings for the cyclic on the left side. A long-armed cyclic stick will need some springs and counterbalances under that panel to work, be it FBW or manual.
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All are saying "haighth"
What the hell? IT IS AIGHTH. So......... I wont be buying! |
Originally Posted by Evil Twin
(Post 10893470)
Could be fly-by-wire Charles, the tech is mature enough.
They are building avionics, a turbine and all the other “ground up” stuff from scratch. Why not throw in FBW as well? It becomes more of a designers wet dream by the minute. Looking forward to it being solar powered and fashioned from a new element on the periodic table next. :} |
Originally Posted by Evil Twin
(Post 10893470)
Could be fly-by-wire Charles, the tech is mature enough.
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Details of the HX-50 engine...
In another step away from long-entrenched industry norms, British manufacturer Hill Helicopters is today announcing that the power for its new HX50 luxury personal helicopter will be their own Hill GT50 light turbine engine with a continuous power output of 400hp. This newly designed powerplant eliminates the need for a compressor turbine gearbox to save weight and complexity, while manufacturing methodologies have enabled a much shorter development lifecycle. An in-house FADEC brings further simplicity to the complete package. In an exclusive interview with CEO Jason Hill, HeliHub.com particularly noted that the creation of its own powerplant has allowed Hill Helicopters to move away from the constraints of existing engine suppliers and designs, many of which trace their origins back to the 1950s or 1960s. The benefit of being able to match engine with airframe from the ground up means that the design will be optimised for the refinement demanded by the HX50 helicopter. The combination of time-tested, proven engine technologies and today’s turbine engine advancements makes the GT50 a compact, light, and innovative solution that defines the future of the light turbine helicopter. “The GT50 has been designed and developed by a team of industry veterans using methods, tools, and techniques pioneered over decades,” says Jason Hill. “It is an intelligent ensemble of proven ideas and architecture, embodied into a new engine that fully exploits modern advancements, manufacturing methods, and supply chain opportunities to fulfill a specific market need.” The Hill GT50 employs state-of-art component and gas-path design delivering unmatched efficiencies for an entry-level turbine. The performance and operating range for the compressor and turbines is coupled with an efficient and robust three-can combustor system, offering a low-risk development route, flameout redundancy, and fuel flexibility. The historically expensive and heavy compressor turbine gearbox of current helicopter engines has been eliminated and replaced by a direct-drive starter-generator to dramatically reduce the cost and mechanical complexity of the engine. Extensive use of redundant electrical engine ancillaries further simplifies the engine package and a modular design makes for easy maintenance of the unit’s core components. The engine is also fully electronically controlled and features the Hill FADEC System, providing trouble-free, rapid startup and shutdown, tight RPM management, and optimal engine monitoring and control. Additionally, the Hill team took advantage of today’s economies of scale in manufacturing turbine components. On-demand advanced manufacturing processes and improved supply chains for the specialized materials used in turbine engines allowed for significant cost and time savings in developing, manufacturing, and delivering an affordable new engine. “The availability of reliable, powerful, and affordable engines is what limits light helicopter design today,” Hill adds. “When considering the overall mix of requirements necessary to power a truly ground-breaking aircraft, we saw the opportunity to design a simple turbine engine with unmatched efficiency, power, and cost. In simple terms, by developing the advanced GT50 engine, Hill has completely unlocked the potential of the helicopter in terms of both performance and cost, providing the enchanting opportunity to relaunch general aviation.” Hill GT50 Turbine Specifications:
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....c02037d3bf.jpg |
Finally, something of substance.
"replaced by a direct-drive starter-generator" - this is an excellent move considering recent developments in electric motors. "Extensive use of redundant electrical engine ancillaries" implies to me that the fuel pump(s), hydraulic pump(s) are now all electric, much like the fuel delivery and power steering in modern cars. I guess that was inevitable. If he's actually pulled this off then it may be worth paying closer attention to their announcements. |
Has an engine actually been built and achieved these specifications and thus might likely be certified as such, or are these simply on-paper design dreams with a working prototype not yet built?
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Mischa Gelb ("Pilot Yellow" on Youtube) has entered into some sort of PR agreement with Hill. He's got a few videos up and today an interview with Hill himself on the engine (so much for the "exclusive interview" HeliHub!)
Hill has also been banging out some videos in the past couple of weeks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCko...nFWs5Ca0utRl2w |
Why would you get an airpod wearing millennial to punt your aircraft on youtube? that was the most annoying part of the video.
There just seems to be a constant whiff of used car salesman in these marketing videos. So they still have to mill the first part and then get round to testing if the theory holds up in practice, then convince a regulator and a buying public to put their faith in an engine with no history. Bold move. Hopefully they aren't leaning on any patents. I don't buy the "we couldn't find an engine which met our performance needs" story. Sure, from a cost and integration perspective it would have hurt a bit but let's not pretend that out of the wide range of engines available none would work. In this instance, ground up, seems to mean using older tech (electrics aside) and borrowing from non-aviation industries. Did he really say it has a single shaft? Didn't that go out in the 60's? I can see the benefits of being able to purpose build the engine, especially if they can deliver on the specs, reliably. It still seems they have bitten off a lot to chew. Look forward to seeing the prototype in action. |
Did he really say it has a single shaft? |
Originally Posted by Bell_ringer
(Post 10917949)
Why would you get an airpod wearing millennial to punt your aircraft on youtube? that was the most annoying part of the video.
There just seems to be a constant whiff of used car salesman in these marketing videos. |
Originally Posted by aa777888
(Post 10918012)
I'd be willing to bet a beer or two that Gelb, seeking another adventure, approached Hill and said something like "Hey, I very successfully flew an R66 around the world. How about I do the same as a publicity stunt for the HX50 when it's ready?" and Hill bought into it.
"Gelb is a co-owner of Canadian firm BC Helicopters, based in Abbotsford, British Columbia. Alongside serial venture capital entrepreneur Ruben Dias, whose FastTrack Ventures business is located in nearby Whistler, Gelb has created a separate company to handle the sales and marketing effort for Hill Helicopters." Dias was Gelb's co-conspirator in the round-the-world flight; as far as I remember he was looking to invest in Hill, but it proved unnecessary for whatever reason. That sales and marketing company gets a commission on every sale of an HX50 they make. And on the engine development - first engine to run on a test bench next year. Three engines to be ground tested ahead of the first flight in 2022. |
Originally Posted by ETOPS
(Post 10917984)
Pretty sure the spec sheet says “ two spool”
he seemed pleased there was no shaft within a shaft and the related complexity. |
Yes, I think they mean two stage not two spool.
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No, it's two spool, but not concentric shafts, he says it in the video. Power turbine is a rear power take off, like the PT6 and Arriel. So two shafts arranged axially behind one another. They are just avoiding the complexities of concentric shafts.
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beautiful engine rendering exercise for sure
in the video Q: do you have the expertise to design engines? A: ... you know ...you go out and get the expertise you need .... That is the cheap business manager rational, that you can buy your way into making extremely complex technology task. I admire the positive thinking but it is lacking the credibility that he can catch up 70 years of knowhow (turbomeca and others) |
Is the engine oil pressure pump an "ancillary"? If it's electrically driven you'd really hate to have your engine turn into burnt toast because a wire fell off or the service man got his wires crossed.
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No, it's two spool, but not concentric shafts, he says it in the video. Power turbine is a rear power take off, like the PT6 and Arriel. So two shafts arranged axially behind one another. They are just avoiding the complexities of concentric shafts. |
Somebody mentioned an electric hydraulic pump?
I would prefer one driven off the main txmsn. Works better after an engine / electrics failure, you don't want to be like the old B47s where an engine failure also meant hydraulics off. With the fore/aft collective, which way is power? Pulling back, sort of like pulling up, or pushing forward like a throttle in a jet? Some muscle retraining needed I reckon. The video refers to the target buyer as somebody with a lot of money but unlikely to fly more than 50 hours a year. Does anybody think that a private pilot in a performance machine like this, flying an hour a week, will not join the statistics in a shortish time? |
Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie
(Post 10918374)
Does anybody think that a private pilot in a performance machine like this, flying an hour a week, will not join the statistics in a shortish time?
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