PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Rotorheads (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads-23/)
-   -   German Federal Police helicopter crew twice refueled the wrong fuel (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/625065-german-federal-police-helicopter-crew-twice-refueled-wrong-fuel.html)

megan 1st Sep 2019 00:36


My Instructor at Army Apprentice college told me you could run a Gas Turbine on coal dust
Been done DB, they can even run diesel engines on the stuff.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/g...r-leno-ecojet/

DownWest 1st Sep 2019 08:28


Originally Posted by megan (Post 10558955)
Been done DB, they can even run diesel engines on the stuff.

Think Otto Diesel's first engine ran on coal dust.

GordonR_Cape 1st Sep 2019 08:46


Originally Posted by DownWest (Post 10559113)
Think Otto Diesel's first engine ran on coal dust.

Much confusion, the name is Rudolf Diesel, while it was Nikolaus Otto that ran his internal combustion engine on coal dust.

GrayHorizonsHeli 1st Sep 2019 13:09

so, is there any hard facts out there from any maintenance manuals telling us about this particular engine and being run on a different fuel?

I know the general consensus can vary by design and manufacturer, but we have heard about 150hrs allowable, to reduced overhaul times and some say you just get a white deposit on the blades.
Surely two tanks of fuel wouldnt have been more than a handful of hours, yet it sounds like the turbines were literally destroyed in this short time.

So what gives?

hueyracer 1st Sep 2019 13:37

It is my understanding (and I might be wrong on that) that only the military manuals provide "alternate fuels" solutions....

Why would it become necessary to refuel a civil helicopter with benzine, or a gas?

Could not think of any situation...


SASless 1st Sep 2019 13:59

What is the difference between #1 Clear Diesel and Jet Fuel...besides a lot of Tax and a pedigree and perhaps some anti-icing additive that can be mixed manually if need be.

Bell_ringer 1st Sep 2019 14:09


Originally Posted by hueyracer (Post 10559258)
Why would it become necessary to refuel a civil helicopter with benzine, or a gas?

Could not think of any situation...

There are many parts of the world that lack infrastructure and services. Paraffin is easy to source, A1 less so.

nigelh 1st Sep 2019 17:28

I am told that heating oil and JetA1 are often the same thing and come out of the same tanker . I think generally there is supposed to be more checks on the standard of Jet A1 but I for one wouldn’t hesitate to use someone’s domestic oil to get home if there was no easy alternative.

[email protected] 1st Sep 2019 17:50

Hueyracer - agreed about the mil alternate and emergency fuels - ISTR the Puma engine could run on almost anything:)

I also remember the increase in ITT/T4/PTIT was the problem with fuels that the engine wasn't designed to run on, especially gasoline which is what wrecks the turbines.

Bravo73 1st Sep 2019 19:05


Originally Posted by nigelh (Post 10559370)
I am told that heating oil and JetA1 are often the same thing and come out of the same tanker .

That is definitely NOT true. I once discussed with our boiler engineer about adding some excess Jet A1 to our domestic heating oil tank. He strongly advised against it to the point of refusing to service the boiler if I did.


Flyting 1st Sep 2019 19:16

We used to run our machines on illuminating paraffin instead of A1. Saved thousands yearly and the basic difference was that A1 had anti freeze added for the planks up high. Down low in africa minus degrees seldom existed so it wasn’t necessary.

MightyGem 1st Sep 2019 20:42

Our hangar heater ran exclusively on JetA1. The heater just needs the burners/injectors or some such adjusted appropriately.

GrayHorizonsHeli 1st Sep 2019 21:28


Originally Posted by Bravo73 (Post 10559437)


That is definitely NOT true. I once discussed with our boiler engineer about adding some excess Jet A1 to our domestic heating oil tank. He strongly advised against it to the point of refusing to service the boiler if I did.


If boiler engineers are like pilots, you'll never get two to agree on anything.

ShyTorque 1st Sep 2019 21:55


Hueyracer - agreed about the mil alternate and emergency fuels - ISTR the Puma engine could run on almost anything:)
But not diesel.

The P&W 207C engines in the Agusta 109 can run on anything the Puma HC1's Turmo III C4 could, plus diesel. Any Jet Fuels or Kerosene are authorised fuels.

Up to 150 hours on any grade of AVGAS as an emergency fuel.

havick 1st Sep 2019 23:00

Were they hot refueling? If so, easy to explain how it happened

megan 2nd Sep 2019 01:23

What does this particular aircrafts (Eurocopter 135) flight manual say re permissible fuels?

Living in Tasmania we had oil house heating and locals ran their diesels on it because that's what it was - diesel. No tax on heating oil, plenty of tax on diesel at the garage.

Some PT-6 are allowed diesel, limitation being OAT to prevent gumming. Crop dusters often use the stuff.

https://www.casa.gov.au/file/78736/d...token=QoRwuv96

Same again 2nd Sep 2019 06:53

Many years ago I was flying a Bell 206 in some Godforsaken part of the world and parked up at a small strip for refuel and overnight parking. I was filling in the tech log when I looked up to see the refueller pumping fuel out of a barrel marked AVGAS. As I was unsure about the effects and I was flying mostly over primary jungle I spent the night draining it out of the tank using a long screwdriver wedged against the sump drain and a marker cone. Every hour or so I would rouse myself and empty the cone.

When I told the Chief Engineer he laughed and said that I should have got a good nights sleep as it would have been perfectly OK to fly it back using AVGAS.

Blackhawk9 2nd Sep 2019 09:40

P&W allow alternate fuels in their engines (one of the reasons QLD rescue insisted in P&W engines in their 135 when they had it) , Turbomeca (Safran) do not , not sure what was in the German 135 but would bet it's a TM engine, ie you are screwed with alternate fuel.

nigelh 2nd Sep 2019 10:42

Bravo ... I would tend to believe the tanker driver who picks the stuff up more than a domestic boiler man !!

Webby737 2nd Sep 2019 10:54


Originally Posted by Bravo73 (Post 10559437)


That is definitely NOT true. I once discussed with our boiler engineer about adding some excess Jet A1 to our domestic heating oil tank. He strongly advised against it to the point of refusing to service the boiler if I did.


I had a friend of mine that ran his central heating system on A1 for years, he never had a problem. He did mention that it seemed to burn a little hotter but also cleaner.


All times are GMT. The time now is 20:16.


Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.