I overheard an interesting conversation last night in a restaurant (I admit I cannot verify what was said so it's definitely rumour only).The gist of it was that dams like this were built with side spill outlets controlled by valves. These are meant to be used to control the maximum water level, to prevent over-topping of the wall but unfortunately these valves could no longer be opened at this dam, because the mechanism has rusted solid over many years.
|
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10536452)
I overheard an interesting conversation last night in a restaurant (I admit I cannot verify what was said so it's definitely rumour only).The gist of it was that dams like this were built with side spill outlets controlled by valves. These are meant to be used to control the maximum water level, to prevent over-topping of the wall but unfortunately these valves could no longer be opened at this dam, because the mechanism has rusted solid over many years.
Somewhere I have a photo of Laggan Dam (adjacent to the A86 Spean Bridge - Kingussie road) in full spate, the amount of water being released is astonishing. The mist of spray it created could be seen from several miles away. Standing next to it was truly awesome. What I am curious about is where the bags being lifted are coming from. |
|
Shy,
Load lifting on a 100 foot strop certainly wasn't uncommon in my time |
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10536452)
I overheard an interesting conversation last night in a restaurant (I admit I cannot verify what was said so it's definitely rumour only).The gist of it was that dams like this were built with side spill outlets controlled by valves. These are meant to be used to control the maximum water level, to prevent over-topping of the wall but unfortunately these valves could no longer be opened at this dam, because the mechanism has rusted solid over many years.
|
Originally Posted by chinook240
(Post 10536486)
https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/...698fe2230efdd1 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EBB0QohWkAAdDWI.jpg |
Merely pointing out the following
As 350 would be quicker, cheaper and more accurate with a longline, reasons 1. Longline with single pilot more accurate so bags could be placed not dropped 2. The pick up could be much closer to the dam and hence shorter flight time 3. Pilot would be more used to a high number of cycles per hour along with the crew eg probably a bag every 1.5 minutes or so 4. Like flying on instruments lifting quickly and safely and accurately is a perishable skill 5. Takes seconds to hook a bag on to a longline hook 6. Most RAF pilots don't do it that regularly. I am just a novice at doing it as i have around 700 hours lifting. The military dont fly a huge amount of hours and not solely lifting, not their fault it is all to do with budgets. It is really tools for the job. I would agree that great training exercise, great PR for RAF and shows the public that we sorely need our military. but the question was is it cheaper and more efficient ! |
If you can't get the bags closer because the roads are closed then the distance is the same.
What level of accuracy do you think could improve on a couple of centimetres - which is what was stated on the TV? USL flying is absolute bread and butter to SH crews. How much would a 350 operator charge the Govt for the service? Is one 350 with a single bag really 3 times more efficient than one Chinook with 3 bags under it? |
Originally Posted by chinook240
(Post 10536486)
If you mean PUP, I’ve seen it’s Long Hill |
Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 10536491)
Shy,
Was it done by Vertical Reference Long Line techniques....doors off or with bubble window doors.....or was the Crewman in back leaning out and providing directions to the Pilot flying. |
Originally Posted by Pozidrive
(Post 10536543)
What you overheard was absolute nonsense. The current pictures clearly show the weir at the top of the spillway. This controls the maximum level, no valves involved. Outlet valves will be at the bottom, possibly in a tunnel within the dam. These will be in regular use to control the flow from the reservoir, and will be maintained in good working order, certainly not allowed to "rust solid over many years".
There is now a new page on the BBC news site showing a photo attributed to the Canal and River Trust which shows the face of the dam. The "weir" is annotated as "Auxiliary Spillway" and appears to have been added later. The main spillway is lower down, as I was led to understand. If the main spillway was serviceable, why is the water being pumped out from above (difficult, very expensive and potentially dangerous), rather than being allowed to drain naturally from below through the valves (i.e. main spillway)? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-49220650 |
Crab
What is the roads closed got to do with it ? If you are the emergency services then you open them ! Lets assume that the bags are a mile from the drop zone, I suspect and knowing the area one could get them way closer. Then the 350 will have a turn round time of around 2 mins per bag. So 400 bags is 800 minutes or 13.3 hours call it 15 to be on the safe side. We would have 2 pilots so at a real push could do those bags in a day AS 350 £15000 Positioning £ 4000 Crew x 2 days £ 1800 Jet a1 £ 1800 Contingecy 15% £ 3120 So £ 25720 is the bill my company would charge. I might be wrong on teh distance, but that would be the advantage of the 350 and a longline. Did you notice the bag rolling down the hill on the news ? |
You still haven’t confirmed your ability to continue through the night in poor weather? |
What is the roads closed got to do with it ? If you are the emergency services then you open them ! As Chinook 240 has pointed out - will you manage 24-hour ops in poor weather? |
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10537290)
Two points:
There is now a new page on the BBC news site showing a photo attributed to the Canal and River Trust which shows the face of the dam. The "weir" is annotated as "Auxiliary Spillway" and appears to have been added later. The main spillway is lower down, as I was led to understand. If the main spillway was serviceable, why is the water being pumped out from above (difficult, very expensive and potentially dangerous), rather than being allowed to drain naturally from below through the valves (i.e. main spillway)? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-49220650 |
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 10537360)
Because if you have evacuated an area because of the risk to life from the dam bursting, you would look pretty silly sending a load of civilian lorries inside that area if the dam did give way - it's just a sensible precaution you are happy to ignore to try and support your point about using a 350.
As Chinook 240 has pointed out - will you manage 24-hour ops in poor weather? |
Originally Posted by Pozidrive
(Post 10537377)
The map in post #23 shows the pick up point is a couple of miles outside the evacuated area, and at a higher elevation. The photos I added show a road across open moorland, no trees, no street lights, no utility poles - looks like as good a place as any.
|
Crab
So what is the cost of a chinnok then, i have told you how much I would do the job for, so money where your mouth is, how much is your chinook going to cost with all the crap that goes with it ? Bet you the RAF can't even get close.to my cost. I am afraid the military is no where near as efficient as you think . Just because you can lift a 105 or an ISO container doesn't put you up there as utility Gods I am afraid |
At the risk of boring. The cost of the Chinook and crew is unknowable. If they were not doing this repair, they would be doing normal exercise and training. You cannot easily calculate the cost per hour of items that are budgeted per year and NEVER intended to be sold by the hour. That's not what the Army do. When they are called in to lay sandbags and rescue people - is that charged? Do the local govt work out which commercial company could do that and how much first?
The cost of a commercial outfit is known, because that is what they do and are set up to charge by the hour/day or whatever. But, it is my contention, the Govt is going to tell the MoD to NOT charge the cost to anyone. So you cannot work out the cost. Lastly, I think that many tax payers would rather the Army do this than a commercial outfit. |
I thought under a national emergency then the military will not charge for their services? You may have to go a little cheaper Hughes500? |
All times are GMT. The time now is 16:36. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.