Too right. I had an IFR crew in the simulator once, we were practicing low visibility runway departures at night (because the contract they were assigned to had a night standby requirement). Experienced ATP Captain flying. In IMC within a few seconds of initial climb-out. Went inverted and flew it into the runway, co-pilot said and did nothing. And if you think that's scary, we repeated the exercise with exactly the same result, co-pilot said and did nothing a second time. And if you think that's scary, guess what happened at the third attempt. That was in ATT uncoupled mode. And if you think push button coupled mode might be more successful, you need to rethink that as well. Because it 'aint.

I am based in South Florida and fly moonless nights over open water regularly. I flew that night and it was deep IMC over water with no moon, clear skies. The first thought I had when I heard about this accident is that the pilots suffered disorientation as they transitioned from over land to over open water and they put it in.

It can happen to anyone, even high time, very skilled pilots.

The law of primacy? Poor crew is probably scared to death of low viz night departures...

Why don't we all wait and see where the NTSB pre-lim report says the tailboom was found. It might have been 20 feet from the fuselage or 2000 feet...we don't factually know at this point.

Also, CFIT doesn't preclude spatial
disorientation...in many cases it's the result of it.
"Controlled flight" doesn't necessarily mean desired flight.

Of course we are all waiting for the NTSB prelim and are all only speculating at this point.

But some are saying that the boom was found 500 feet from the fuselage. I am simply saying a scenario like this does not rule out spatial disorientation that leads to an an uncontrolled crash into the water with a cartwheeling of the aircraft, scattering parts along a distance.

I have personally seen cases of CFIT crashes where the aircraft emerges essentially intact from the water. I have also personally seen cases where spatial orientation lead to a large debris field with scattering of aircraft parts including tail from fuselage.

I know CFIT comes from spatial disorientation but there is a difference in result of a controlled (CFIT implies) vs uncontrolled hit into water as far as the debris field and aftermath.

I am only trying to bring up the fact that all pilots can possibly succumb to spatial disorientation on a moonless night over open water upon departure....whether it be a controlled descent into water or an uncontrolled event.

It's their job. They need to be able to do it. However, cultural aspects provide relief in that scenario where any unfortunate mishap will be the will of...well, the will of you know who. Inshallah.

I'm in violent agreement with your last paragraph.

Because he's correct, and it doesn't have to be night either. Military test pilot in a jet decided to go around on a day approach when a rain shaft obscured the runway, IFR in the rain he suddenly found himself sitting in a wreck in the scrub, confined to a wheelchair there after and very lucky it had not been worse.

What is difficult about IMC?
 

Hot and Hi - I think the point you are missing is that there is a transition from VMC to IMC on a night overwater departure that you have to be mentally prepared for - you go from the comfort of your landing light illumination into pitch black and if you haven't already been including your instruments in your hover scan, you can easily be slow to fully establish your IFR comfort zone.

It is the sort of scenario that needs training and practice. I'm sure TC will attest to how easy it is to get disorientated flying off the back of a ship at night - you are dealing with a change of scan and all the somatogravic illusions of acceleration which you don't normally get on an IFR departure because you establish yourself above VminI before going IMC.

Sasless and I have discussed the military IFTO technique flown from the ground or the low hover which is still not included in civil training or tests - this technique prepares you for those tricky 'on instruments before V minI' situations.

In a phase 4, you cant just couple the FD from the hover. You need to be inside the airspeed/altitude parameters, so you need to do a manually-flown departure from below vmini, as Crab says.
If you have practised it, its something a competent IFR pilot should be able to cope with. If you havent practised it, then it is not something to attempt "off the cuff" !

Well spotted Bravo73 - I didn't see that:ok: thanks - the same confrontational style fooled me:)

Whilst it seems rather tangential to the current flow of the thread, I remain interested in the background to the fatal flight. The eyewitness report states that the aircraft ARRIVED about half an hour before it departed on the fatal flight. Do we know where from? Do we know why it took around 30 minutes to take off again? If it was a medical emergency involving the owners daughter, would we not expect it to take off immediately? Why was it heading to the US; the medical facilities in the Bahamas are doubtless less sophisticated at the high end, but their proximity would be a major advantage, and they would certainly be able to deal with "alcohol poisoning" ? Why so many friends on the aircraft: I know what young girls are like, but alcohol poisoning is not a spectator sport, and by the time her Father had become involved and had to send for his helicopter in the middle of the night, I would have expected a different and smaller passenger list.
Possibly all irrelevant to what happened, but until we know what transpired, maybe not.

My post which is number 817 of this Thread about the 139 crash at Gillingham applies to our current discussion.

https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/53...norfolk-7.html

Police statement.
 

Re the above, I also wondered why the aircraft waited 30 minutes for the passengers? It didn't appear to take any fuel according to the witness who worked for the owner.

Bahamas Police spokesmen states they don't believe there was a distress call, and that the weather wasn't a problem.
https://popculture.com/celebrity/201...new-boyfriend/

Exactly! The whole debate about how easily even a decorated pilot can lose it in IMC has detracted from real question marks in this story:

- Alcohol poisoning may be serious, but is not complicated. Any hospital can treat it.
- Given that night VFR is illegal in Bahamas, you wouldn't take any non essential crew on an emergency flight.

Is it possible that we just wanted to go to a trendy night club in Miami?

You need to ponder the wisdom contained in a post by FH1100. Never have I seen it so eloquently put.