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The big basket thing exists.....Columbia Helicopter or Erickson had a version for use in evacuating people from Tall Buildings.
Other sources for such baskets are out there...... https://www.integralrisk.global/equipment/ |
Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 10430281)
The big basket thing exists.....Columbia Helicopter or Erickson had a version for use in evacuating people from Tall Buildings.
Other sources for such baskets are out there...... https://www.integralrisk.global/equipment/ Exactly what i was thinking of. i was going to say a scoop net, as we used to use under the JR, but didnt know if it could be explained properly. 10-15 at a time, taking about 1 minute to load, and way less risk than winching individually. |
Most hoist cables have a weight limit (600lb if I recall). You can fill a basket with people, but can only lift 2-3 at a time anyway due to the weight limit (less if you see some cruise pax) |
Originally Posted by minigundiplomat
(Post 10431022)
Most hoist cables have a weight limit (600lb if I recall). You can fill a basket with people, but can only lift 2-3 at a time anyway due to the weight limit (less if you see some cruise pax) skadi |
Cranes and Hooks could lift baskets that could hold 25-30 people without any problem.....except for a few things like being ready and close enough to deploy to the scene, have a support system for fuel and handling the passengers brought to safety....for a start.
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Not forgetting how to persuade 25-30 American OAPs to get into one of those baskets in the first place. |
It always looks very nice on paper but underslung loads have a mind of their own.
The first problem is getting people to get into it. With you toes toasting on top of a building there is lots of encouragement but with 150,000 tons or so of steel still above the water maybe not so much. Once they are in they have to be pulled.off fairly rapidly or the basket will start to spin. The blurb quotes 126 knots, a 332L with six drums of diesel on a 60 ft. strop and internally loaded to 19,500 lbs. will cruise at a max 90 knots at 1,000 ft. Your survivors won't fly as well as full drums so it's going to be slower. Even if it cruises at 60 knots at 5 degrees C the wind chill means that your passengers will be feeling minus 4. How long can they put up with that when they are in nightclothes and a lifejacket? Over any sort of distance the time saved by packing them into a wire box will be lost because of the transit times compared with winching them in followed a high speed cruise. An adjacent rescue vehicle, like a ship, will have it's own boats to shuttle with. OK for it's designed purpose, but no good for cruise liners. |
Using this latest incident....the flight time would have been perhaps five minutes and they could have been landed on the shore....and shuttled to a safe location for further processing.
But as I said...and as you have pointed out....there are physical limitations to using such a basket. Ships have life boats and life rafts for a reason....and when one goes for a cruise....you do take certain risks even unknowingly. |
What's the point if the damn ship is too far away?
You can have the biggest 'basket' in the world. |
Oil needed topping up...
Throughout the night, the NMA has worked together with the ship's classification society, Lloyd’s, and the company in order to identify the reason why the Viking Sky suffered power “blackout” at Hustadvika in challenging weather conditions on Saturday 23 March. For the present, our conclusion is that the engine failure was directly caused by low oil pressure. Last night, the Norwegian Maritime Authority (NMA) granted the company a permit to sail on a single voyage to Kristiansund to have necessary repairs made.
Throughout the night, the NMA has worked together with the ship's classification society, Lloyd’s, and the company in order to identify the reason why the Viking Sky suffered power “blackout” at Hustadvika in challenging weather conditions on Saturday 23 March. For the present, our conclusion is that the engine failure was directly caused by low oil pressure. The level of lubricating oil in the tanks was within set limits, however relatively low, when the vessel started to cross Hustadvika. The tanks were provided with level alarms, however these had not been triggered at this time. The heavy seas in Hustadvika probably caused movements in the tanks so large that the supply to the lubricating oil pumps stopped. This triggered an alarm indicating a low level of lubrication oil, which in turn shortly thereafter caused an automatic shutdown of the engines. The NMA has drawn up a general safety notice about ensuring a continuous supply of lubricating oil to engines and other critical systems in poor weather conditions. This should be done in cooperation with the engine supplier and, moreover, be included in the ship’s risk assessments in the safety management system. Viking Ocean Cruises has made the following statement: “We welcome the prompt and efficient investigation carried out by the NMA and we fully understand and acknowledge their findings. We have inspected the levels on all our sister ships and are now revising our procedures to ensure that this issue could not be repeated. We will continue to work with our partners and the regulatory bodies in supporting them with the ongoing investigations,”Norwegian Maritime Authority is in a continuous dialogue with the company and classification society, and this cooperation has been successful. We will follow up the ongoing work to rectify damages on vessels. Furthermore, we will continue the constructive dialogue with the classification society, company and the Accident Investigation Board Norway in order to reveal underlying causes and identify appropriate measures. |
This triggered an alarm indicating a low level of lubrication oil, which in turn shortly thereafter caused an automatic shutdown of the engines. |
As would the sound of the hull grinding against rocks. Seems a bit drastic to automatically shut down all engines on the basis of what would apparently be an intermittent low lube indication.
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Not possible to transfer oil between tanks-just like fuel...?
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Why were the lube oil tanks' low limits and level alarm levels set too low? Or otherwise "...had not been triggered...?"
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Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 10430281)
The big basket thing exists.....Columbia Helicopter or Erickson had a version for use in evacuating people from Tall Buildings.
Other sources for such baskets are out there...... The concept is based around moving up to 15 people per lift cycle from a specifically designed rescue basket that is flown from the cargo hook, not the winch. Crucially, it is not designed to replace winch based rescue, rather, it is designed to complement it in situations such as the MV Viking Sky emergency, where the sheer number of people require rescue. Fareastdriver made the following points:
Originally Posted by Fareastdriver
(Post 10431338)
It always looks very nice on paper but underslung loads have a mind of their own.
The first problem is getting people to get into it. With you toes toasting on top of a building there is lots of encouragement but with 150,000 tons or so of steel still above the water maybe not so much. Once they are in they have to be pulled.off fairly rapidly or the basket will start to spin. The blurb quotes 126 knots, a 332L with six drums of diesel on a 60 ft. strop and internally loaded to 19,500 lbs. will cruise at a max 90 knots at 1,000 ft. Your survivors won't fly as well as full drums so it's going to be slower. Even if it cruises at 60 knots at 5 degrees C the wind chill means that your passengers will be feeling minus 4. How long can they put up with that when they are in nightclothes and a lifejacket? Over any sort of distance the time saved by packing them into a wire box will be lost because of the transit times compared with winching them in followed a high speed cruise. An adjacent rescue vehicle, like a ship, will have it's own boats to shuttle with. OK for it's designed purpose, but no good for cruise liners. "The first problem is getting people to get into it". I put it to you that if the ship is on fire, or is sinking, or is drifting towards rocks etc, then the motivation to get into a rescue device might be heightened somewhat? In this instance, the captain was concerned enough for the ships safety and integrity to order an evacuation. It was obviously in enough danger (or perceived danger) to warrant the call. "Once they are in they have to be pulled.off fairly rapidly or the basket will start to spin" No! We have tested the Multi Person Helicopter Rescue baskets at up to 120kts with an asymmetric weighted load and they do not spin. As can be seen on the video here on our website (I'm too new and I'm not allowed to post a link!!) "Over any sort of distance the time saved by packing them into a wire box will be lost because of the transit times compared with winching them in followed a high speed cruise." It's important to remember that the capability is designed to take high number of people from the point of danger to a place of "relative safety" That could be a nearby ship, or in the Norwegian example to land, which was only a few hundred meters away. A complete lift cycle for up to 15 people can be completed - including the drop off a few hundred meters from the scene is around 10 minutes. That around 75 people per hour, per aircraft. "OK for it's designed purpose, but no good for cruise liners" I disagree! This is precisely the type of emergency that Multi Person Helicopter Rescue was designed to address. I wrote an article on this on LinkedIn that covers most of these points and more. I'll post a link as soon as I"m allowed!! |
The Achilles heel to this method of rescue is simply logistics.
Ability to put the basket(s) on scene.... and then being able to perform the lifts. Just how do you achieve that is the problem....Cruise Ships cover a lot of ground during their operations and evacuations from some distance from shore become very difficult to carry out. This is one of those "Solutions looking for Problem" situations I am thinking. Baskets for multi-person evacuations from tall buildings in a large urban area.....that makes sense. Lifts during large area floods.....again I can see the use for a basket. Cruise ships well away from shore....not so much. |
Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 10443412)
The Achilles heel to this method of rescue is simply logistics.
Ability to put the basket(s) on scene.... and then being able to perform the lifts. Just how do you achieve that is the problem....Cruise Ships cover a lot of ground during their operations and evacuations from some distance from shore become very difficult to carry out. This is one of those "Solutions looking for Problem" situations I am thinking. Baskets for multi-person evacuations from tall buildings in a large urban area.....that makes sense. Lifts during large area floods.....again I can see the use for a basket. Cruise ships well away from shore....not so much. No single rescue capability is ideal for every rescue scenario and I made the point earlier that Multi Person Helicopter Rescue is designed to compliment existing capability rather than replace it. However, you state that MPHR is not suitable for emergencies on cruise ships well away from shore, but you've made that point on a thread that's discussing an emergency that happened about 1km from the shore. So of course we can find scenarios where it might not work, but there are plenty where it can - and does. Interestingly, I attended some meetings and briefings with the SARINOR (Search And Rescue In The High North) project time a year or so back - a Norwegian led study that is modelling and planning for just the scenario that you describe. There is a huge increase in large cruise ships (much larger than the MV Viking Sky) that are sailing right up to the polar ice cap - well above 80º North - and the regional rescue agencies are very worried that an MV Viking Sky type emergency could occur in those areas. In this scenario, we discussed how a temporary rescue camp would be set up on the ice cap itself; where logistics (aircraft fuel!), medical and life support services would be set up whilst the longer term rescue plan (anything from 12 - 72 hour or more) could be activated. In this scenario, Multi Person Helicopter Rescue baskets formed an integral part of that particular planing and modelling. Remember that cruise ships typically sail quite close to the coasts for much of their voyage, as they hop from port to port. But of course, they also sail across oceans and even when 'hopping' they can be several hundred miles from shore and in those circumstances, the capability (like everything else) has its limitations. MPHR is only really limited though, by the range of the helicopters and their ability to reach the emergency location. You're also right to point out that MPHR is also very useful for high rise building fires - as demonstrated in the recent Dhaka tower fire. Whilst MPHR was not utilised in that rescue, people were rescued by helicopter from the building's flat roof. Could more have been saved if MPHR baskets were available? I don't know, but the concept of rescue from the top of a building, where the lower floors are on fire and stairways are blocked, is proven. |
Rescuers Honored and awarded!
Ship owner Torstein Hagen has made it clear that he appreciates all involved in the rescue of his ship.
1 million Nkr Ca 105 000Euro has been given to: The local town and sportsclub of Hustavika Norsk Folke hjelp ( Sortoff redcross) Norsk Luftambulanse that used the Airbus Helikopter 145 medevac to get the wounded to hospital. The RNoAF 330 Seaking chaps was also mentioned and so was CHC that came in from the Riggs in the North sea. It shall also be mentioned that the ship did not have a Emergency Tow System compulsory for a long time on oiltankers ( Exxon Valdes or Braer) This system operates independent of main engine pwr and makes it possible to attach a heavy towline in any condition. Again the Rotorheads in Norway made me proud. Oh, and the basket, is just that: A basket Case! I vote for full oil and fuel tanks ,Thanks! Stay Safe Cpt B |
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