Nige321......If there was a "Like" Button here at pprune....I would be using it right now in response to your Post!:D
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mel
Perfectly normal. The technique was originally intended for use from a restricted area where category "A" performance was required - ie land or fly away from a single engine failure. The reversing element was to allow the pilot to retain sight of the pad through the chin window as he climbed to the critical height from which he could dive on speed and fly away if an engine failed. Prior to that point a descent onto the still visible pad is accomplished on the remaining engine. Looks like it backed out into a tail wind too...? |
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....41d50a03ed.png
comparison 139 confined area t/o profile. Sorry if image quality poor. |
A tragic incident indeed and only a proper investigation will shed light on what happened. Looking at the crash site and given I think the wind was north, north westerly on that day. It looks like a down wind transition? Another hole in the cheese maybe. |
CatA/Class1/PerfA - whatever it’s called -as we all know here - any performance figures are invalid if you have a tailwind. condolances to all |
Originally Posted by dingo9
(Post 10294766)
A tragic incident indeed and only a proper investigation will shed light on what happened. Looking at the crash site and given I think the wind was north, north westerly on that day. It looks like a down wind transition? Another hole in the cheese maybe. |
Originally Posted by OvertHawk
(Post 10294811)
Unless the failure occurred whilst he was still in the up and back segment and before he had begun his transition into forward flight. In which case he would have been pointing into a NNW wind as would be expected (assuming that google earth image is North up.)
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If the alleged is true and this new aircraft did suffer a tail rotor failure of sorts, it begs the question, was this a material failure or maintenance?
T/O from the stadium will confuse the wind direction and only when clearing the bowl would the true wind affect the a/c. Whatever - an alleged TRF at a critical height (probably inside this twins dead mans curve, will almost certainly result in bad news. RiP to all souls onboard. |
Originally Posted by OvertHawk
(Post 10294811)
Unless the failure occurred whilst he was still in the up and back segment and before he had begun his transition into forward flight. In which case he would have been pointing into a NNW wind as would be expected (assuming that google earth image is North up.)
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Fixed wing pilot here, no speculation just purely interested...what is the procedure for a Tail rotor failure at low level like this?? What are the gotchas etc
Thanks |
Originally Posted by chopjock
(Post 10294830)
No I think you are confused. The video shows the helicopter backing up into wind with nose pointing down wind...
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Originally Posted by Livesinafield
(Post 10294847)
Fixed wing pilot here, no speculation just purely interested...what is the procedure for a Tail rotor failure at low level like this?? What are the gotchas etc
Thanks In reality, startle effect, low level, at night, its unimaginable.. |
Originally Posted by Livesinafield
(Post 10294847)
Fixed wing pilot here, no speculation just purely interested...what is the procedure for a Tail rotor failure at low level like this?? What are the gotchas etc
Thanks |
Originally Posted by Livesinafield
(Post 10294847)
Fixed wing pilot here, no speculation just purely interested...what is the procedure for a Tail rotor failure at low level like this?? What are the gotchas etc
Thanks To do all that, a considerable amount of height is required (500' plus but sure someone cleverer than me will correct) which, on current knowledge, wasn't there, and of course, there is the pilot reaction time to factor in, my experience is simulator based where I either knew it was coming or was highly tuned to something was coming. High power (collective) setting, 200' or so and no/little airspeed.....that would be a challenge, even if you knew it was coming. |
Originally Posted by Bell_ringer
(Post 10294848)
Inside a stadium (bowl) the wind direction can be unrelated to what is reported outside. |
Thanks for the info chaps, so I assume this is an event you practice in your yearly Sims? Like we do with V1 cuts...but as you say you know what's coming and you know exactly how it will behave...different game in the real world
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No so far away in 1998, the East Midlands Police Air Support Unit helicopter suffered a fatality based on a flawed night departure procedure. as a result it had to put in placed a safe departure and arrival procedure for operations so that there were external references and means collision avoidance for departure and arrivals at night. The report can be found at:
https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/euro...ely-2305-hours It strikes me if you need to reverse before going into transition, then departing out of a football ground is not the best idea. Ironically the surrounding area has multiple suitable sites for a dedicated LCFC heliport, and also being ideal for a heliport for the Leicester Royal Infirmary which currently does not have a dedicated heliport. Likewise a westerly prevailing wind departure over the river and meadows would avoid overflight of congested areas. |
Reverse before transition is a recommended profile for AW types. It's a good congested area profile based on OEI considerations but nothing can be written for drive failure (if this is a possible cause).
Yes it would be safer to depart from a great long runway free of obstacles but it's a helicopter. That's what they do. |
Would imagine that stadium has good cctv coverage so the chain of events is properly recorded. |
Originally Posted by Livesinafield
(Post 10294867)
Thanks for the info chaps, so I assume this is an event you practice in your yearly Sims? Like we do with V1 cuts...but as you say you know what's coming and you know exactly how it will behave...different game in the real world
I don‘t understand how either a vertical profile or take-off from a heliport have any bearing here. Anti-torque failure just after TDP from a heliport in a congested environment at night. Seriously, what are you chances? Condolences to family, friends and colleagues. What a terrible accident. |
GBB...I don't think members of the helicopter community should be suggesting " helicopters are inherently dangerous" or that you "can't recover from a tail rotor failure".Ive been flying helicopters for over 40 years, practised autorotation after a tail rotor failure 100s of times and never been involved in an accident. We should all be talking about how safe helicopters are these days ,not talking them down. |
Torquetorque. I think the line of inquiry this rumour network is currently going down, and I stress RUMOUR\CONJECTURE is that the tail rotor failed due to it hitting something, either ac backing up and clipping something or for whatever reason a decent post TDP and again tail rotor strike. Pure tail rotor drive failure would be very rare and unlucky- but not impossible. |
Originally Posted by dingo9
(Post 10294909)
Torquetorque. I think the line of inquiry this rumour network is currently going down, and I stress RUMOUR\CONJECTURE is that the tail rotor failed due to it hitting something, either ac backing up and clipping something or for whatever reason a decent post TDP and again tail rotor strike. Pure tail rotor drive failure would be very rare and unlucky- but not impossible. |
It looks taking off from a bottom of a bucket IT IS NOT normal operations |
For those that think a recovery from TR failure in such a situation where you are low (<400ft), climbing vertical or backup t/o profile using lots of power is as simple as entering autorotation and guiding the a/c to a landing site then I challenge you to have a go in a realistic sim. Not at 1000ft doing 60 kts in the day. Make it 200ft with 100% torque at night and for realism throw in a 3 second delay. Let me know how you get on.
These types of operations are normal, of course they are. Helicopters fly these profiles in challenging conditions every day so please don't think this was an abnormal operation. If you are referring to the poorly powered heavy twin 206 that ran out power then it's not the same as a complete TR failure which is a POSSIBLE consideration here. |
These crews have been picking up the owner from that same place week after week after week for many years so actually it IS normal operations for them, |
Originally Posted by chopjock
(Post 10294972)
I wonder if that was a contributing factor. The wind usually comes from the same place week after week after week. Except this time it didn't.
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Sliding door
Originally Posted by skadi
(Post 10294658)
It looks like one of the rear sliding doors...
skadi |
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10294983)
But also bear in mind that they had very recently landed.
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10294983)
But also bear in mind that they had very recently landed.
Yes and were seen still facing into wind before lifting. Why on earth do a 180 turn to depart downwind? |
Just to let anyone know that doesn't realise, the video isn't from last night, you can see the Champions League hoardings in the background. And the 'final moments' video is also not from last night.
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Originally Posted by chopjock
(Post 10294992)
Yes and were seen still facing into wind before lifting. Why on earth do a 180 turn to depart downwind?
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In one of the pictures of the wreck, correct me if I am wrong, but I think one of the tail rotor blades can be seen and it is in one piece and not bent. From this one could assume no collision with a fixed object and not under power when it hit the ground.
So may be a failure in the transmission. Did anybody else notice this? |
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10295019)
I really can't provide an answer to that. Perhaps the wind velocity wasn't seen as the over-riding factor. It's not totally out of the ordinary to have to depart downwind because that's the only way out of a landing site. For private ops, "Cat A" isn't a mandatory requirement, although it is preferable, for obvious reasons.
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police name all on board
Sky news have published the police statement at 22.09.
May they all RIP. https://news.sky.com/story/live-leic...crash-11538203 |
Originally Posted by TheiC
(Post 10295025)
It’s not anywhere I can find on their website. Don’t prolong the agony, post a link. Sadly, my own fears have already been confirmed outwith this forum. The five people were on board the helicopter when the incident happened. While formal identification has not yet taken place, they are believed to be Leicester City Football Club chairman Vichai Srivaddhanaprabha, two members of his staff, Nursara Suknamai and Kaveporn Punpare, pilot Eric Swaffer and passenger Izabela Roza Lechowicz. |
Originally Posted by horizon flyer
(Post 10295023)
In one of the pictures of the wreck, correct me if I am wrong, but I think one of the tail rotor blades can be seen and it is in one piece and not bent. From this one could assume no collision with a fixed object and not under power when it hit the ground.
So may be a failure in the transmission. Did anybody else notice this? |
It is there.....just read the latest update that lists the names.
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Originally Posted by OvertHawk
(Post 10295026)
It is invariably a requirement of a Rule 5 Congested area permission though, Shy, regardless of whether or not you're private.
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