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-   -   Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/614822-helicopter-down-outside-leicester-city-football-club.html)

SASless 28th Oct 2018 16:40

Nige321......If there was a "Like" Button here at pprune....I would be using it right now in response to your Post!:D

chopjock 28th Oct 2018 16:55

mel

Perfectly normal. The technique was originally intended for use from a restricted area where category "A" performance was required - ie land or fly away from a single engine failure. The reversing element was to allow the pilot to retain sight of the pad through the chin window as he climbed to the critical height from which he could dive on speed and fly away if an engine failed. Prior to that point a descent onto the still visible pad is accomplished on the remaining engine.
That's all well and good in catering for a loss of a power unit when you have two engines, however it increases the time the tail rotor is under high stresses and there is only one tail rotor!
Looks like it backed out into a tail wind too...?

Sir Korsky 28th Oct 2018 17:08

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....41d50a03ed.png

comparison 139 confined area t/o profile. Sorry if image quality poor.

dingo9 28th Oct 2018 17:11

A tragic incident indeed and only a proper investigation will shed light on what happened. Looking at the crash site and given I think the wind was north, north westerly on that day. It looks like a down wind transition? Another hole in the cheese maybe.

EESDL 28th Oct 2018 17:57

CatA/Class1/PerfA - whatever it’s called -as we all know here - any performance figures are invalid if you have a tailwind.
condolances to all

OvertHawk 28th Oct 2018 18:03


Originally Posted by dingo9 (Post 10294766)
A tragic incident indeed and only a proper investigation will shed light on what happened. Looking at the crash site and given I think the wind was north, north westerly on that day. It looks like a down wind transition? Another hole in the cheese maybe.

Unless the failure occurred whilst he was still in the up and back segment and before he had begun his transition into forward flight. In which case he would have been pointing into a NNW wind as would be expected (assuming that google earth image is North up.)

dingo9 28th Oct 2018 18:15


Originally Posted by OvertHawk (Post 10294811)
Unless the failure occurred whilst he was still in the up and back segment and before he had begun his transition into forward flight. In which case he would have been pointing into a NNW wind as would be expected (assuming that google earth image is North up.)

very true. Or there was a considerable period of fight for control and then all bets are off where they would end up.

Thomas coupling 28th Oct 2018 18:16

If the alleged is true and this new aircraft did suffer a tail rotor failure of sorts, it begs the question, was this a material failure or maintenance?
T/O from the stadium will confuse the wind direction and only when clearing the bowl would the true wind affect the a/c.
Whatever - an alleged TRF at a critical height (probably inside this twins dead mans curve, will almost certainly result in bad news.
RiP to all souls onboard.

chopjock 28th Oct 2018 18:30


Originally Posted by OvertHawk (Post 10294811)
Unless the failure occurred whilst he was still in the up and back segment and before he had begun his transition into forward flight. In which case he would have been pointing into a NNW wind as would be expected (assuming that google earth image is North up.)

No I think you are confused. The video shows the helicopter backing up into wind with nose pointing down wind...


Livesinafield 28th Oct 2018 18:57

Fixed wing pilot here, no speculation just purely interested...what is the procedure for a Tail rotor failure at low level like this?? What are the gotchas etc

Thanks

Bell_ringer 28th Oct 2018 18:59


Originally Posted by chopjock (Post 10294830)
No I think you are confused. The video shows the helicopter backing up into wind with nose pointing down wind...

Inside a stadium (bowl) the wind direction can be unrelated to what is reported outside.

helicrazi 28th Oct 2018 19:01


Originally Posted by Livesinafield (Post 10294847)
Fixed wing pilot here, no speculation just purely interested...what is the procedure for a Tail rotor failure at low level like this?? What are the gotchas etc

Thanks

Dump the collective, engines off, cushion landing, im sure someone thinks its possible, maybe if you know its coming.

In reality, startle effect, low level, at night, its unimaginable..

Bell_ringer 28th Oct 2018 19:04


Originally Posted by Livesinafield (Post 10294847)
Fixed wing pilot here, no speculation just purely interested...what is the procedure for a Tail rotor failure at low level like this?? What are the gotchas etc

Thanks

Inside a stadium? Make sure your loved ones have your insurance details and hope that it's your lucky day.

Sloppy Link 28th Oct 2018 19:12


Originally Posted by Livesinafield (Post 10294847)
Fixed wing pilot here, no speculation just purely interested...what is the procedure for a Tail rotor failure at low level like this?? What are the gotchas etc

Thanks

Lower collective to cancel torque effect thereby preventing spin. Push nose down to gain forward airspeed, generally, above 70kts will keep enough of an airflow over the airframe to keep it straight and then feed collective back in to arrest rate of decent. Find suitable landing site, perform engine off landing.
To do all that, a considerable amount of height is required (500' plus but sure someone cleverer than me will correct) which, on current knowledge, wasn't there, and of course, there is the pilot reaction time to factor in, my experience is simulator based where I either knew it was coming or was highly tuned to something was coming.
High power (collective) setting, 200' or so and no/little airspeed.....that would be a challenge, even if you knew it was coming.

dingo9 28th Oct 2018 19:13


Originally Posted by Bell_ringer (Post 10294848)


Inside a stadium (bowl) the wind direction can be unrelated to what is reported outside.

correct. But you need the wind in the transition. You transition above the stadium, ideally 100’ + above the stadium. The wind here is significant and pretty true. On the day 15-20kts... 0kts in the stadium to an almost instant tailwind... uncomfortable at best, high AUM/power limited?

Livesinafield 28th Oct 2018 19:18

Thanks for the info chaps, so I assume this is an event you practice in your yearly Sims? Like we do with V1 cuts...but as you say you know what's coming and you know exactly how it will behave...different game in the real world

anchorhold 28th Oct 2018 19:19

No so far away in 1998, the East Midlands Police Air Support Unit helicopter suffered a fatality based on a flawed night departure procedure. as a result it had to put in placed a safe departure and arrival procedure for operations so that there were external references and means collision avoidance for departure and arrivals at night. The report can be found at:

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/euro...ely-2305-hours

It strikes me if you need to reverse before going into transition, then departing out of a football ground is not the best idea. Ironically the surrounding area has multiple suitable sites for a dedicated LCFC heliport, and also being ideal for a heliport for the Leicester Royal Infirmary which currently does not have a dedicated heliport. Likewise a westerly prevailing wind departure over the river and meadows would avoid overflight of congested areas.

jeepys 28th Oct 2018 19:33

Reverse before transition is a recommended profile for AW types. It's a good congested area profile based on OEI considerations but nothing can be written for drive failure (if this is a possible cause).
Yes it would be safer to depart from a great long runway free of obstacles but it's a helicopter. That's what they do.

Bell_ringer 28th Oct 2018 19:55

Would imagine that stadium has good cctv coverage so the chain of events is properly recorded.

Torquetalk 28th Oct 2018 20:08


Originally Posted by Livesinafield (Post 10294867)
Thanks for the info chaps, so I assume this is an event you practice in your yearly Sims? Like we do with V1 cuts...but as you say you know what's coming and you know exactly how it will behave...different game in the real world

On that type, anti-torque system failures would form part of initial and recurrent training. But if this was indeed an anti-torque failure, this particular situation would not only require great skill, but also a huge amount of luck to manage successfully. The pilots would have found themselves in a grave situation, at night, in a congested environment, and with no height or airspeed. It doesn’t get much worse. The football field itself may have been the only safe environment to land onto, being lit, flat and obstacle-free. But I doubt if the crew were in a position to make that decision.

I don‘t understand how either a vertical profile or take-off from a heliport have any bearing here. Anti-torque failure just after TDP from a heliport in a congested environment at night. Seriously, what are you chances?

Condolences to family, friends and colleagues. What a terrible accident.

heli1 28th Oct 2018 20:19

GBB...I don't think members of the helicopter community should be suggesting " helicopters are inherently dangerous" or that you "can't recover from a tail rotor failure".Ive been flying helicopters for over 40 years, practised autorotation after a tail rotor failure 100s of times and never been involved in an accident. We should all be talking about how safe helicopters are these days ,not talking them down.

dingo9 28th Oct 2018 20:28

Torquetorque. I think the line of inquiry this rumour network is currently going down, and I stress RUMOUR\CONJECTURE is that the tail rotor failed due to it hitting something, either ac backing up and clipping something or for whatever reason a decent post TDP and again tail rotor strike. Pure tail rotor drive failure would be very rare and unlucky- but not impossible.

Torquetalk 28th Oct 2018 20:42


Originally Posted by dingo9 (Post 10294909)
Torquetorque. I think the line of inquiry this rumour network is currently going down, and I stress RUMOUR\CONJECTURE is that the tail rotor failed due to it hitting something, either ac backing up and clipping something or for whatever reason a decent post TDP and again tail rotor strike. Pure tail rotor drive failure would be very rare and unlucky- but not impossible.

My post was in response to Livesinfiled‘s question. From the video the pilot seems aware of the surroundings and to have positioned and climbed accordingly during take-off. I really cannot see any reason to speculate about clipping something.

KiwiNedNZ 28th Oct 2018 21:21


It looks taking off from a bottom of a bucket IT IS NOT normal operations
- Maybe you should do some research before making that comment. These crews have been picking up the owner from that same place week after week after week for many years so actually it IS normal operations for them,.

jeepys 28th Oct 2018 21:22

For those that think a recovery from TR failure in such a situation where you are low (<400ft), climbing vertical or backup t/o profile using lots of power is as simple as entering autorotation and guiding the a/c to a landing site then I challenge you to have a go in a realistic sim. Not at 1000ft doing 60 kts in the day. Make it 200ft with 100% torque at night and for realism throw in a 3 second delay. Let me know how you get on.
These types of operations are normal, of course they are. Helicopters fly these profiles in challenging conditions every day so please don't think this was an abnormal operation.
If you are referring to the poorly powered heavy twin 206 that ran out power then it's not the same as a complete TR failure which is a POSSIBLE consideration here.

chopjock 28th Oct 2018 21:48


These crews have been picking up the owner from that same place week after week after week for many years so actually it IS normal operations for them,
I wonder if that was a contributing factor. The wind usually comes from the same place week after week after week. Except this time it didn't.

ShyTorque 28th Oct 2018 21:57


Originally Posted by chopjock (Post 10294972)
I wonder if that was a contributing factor. The wind usually comes from the same place week after week after week. Except this time it didn't.

But also bear in mind that they had very recently landed.

thelad 28th Oct 2018 22:06

Sliding door
 

Originally Posted by skadi (Post 10294658)
It looks like one of the rear sliding doors...

skadi

yea it does, looks like the R/H Side door but looks like the impact hit the L/H side.

dingo9 28th Oct 2018 22:11


Originally Posted by ShyTorque (Post 10294983)
But also bear in mind that they had very recently landed.

if you watch the video is shows them doing a 180’ spot turn. Which if they landed into wind would now put them down wind. That is assuming when they landed they didn’t turn.. would need to see all the footage to be sure. However looking at google earth there are some nasty 200’+ wires to the north. Departing into a prevailing SW’ly down the river valley along the open ground would be a much more appealing departure direction.

chopjock 28th Oct 2018 22:11


Originally Posted by ShyTorque (Post 10294983)
But also bear in mind that they had very recently landed.


Yes and were seen still facing into wind before lifting. Why on earth do a 180 turn to depart downwind?

LeicesterFox 28th Oct 2018 22:28

Just to let anyone know that doesn't realise, the video isn't from last night, you can see the Champions League hoardings in the background. And the 'final moments' video is also not from last night.

ShyTorque 28th Oct 2018 22:38


Originally Posted by chopjock (Post 10294992)
Yes and were seen still facing into wind before lifting. Why on earth do a 180 turn to depart downwind?

I really can't provide an answer to that. Perhaps the wind velocity wasn't seen as the over-riding factor. It's not totally out of the ordinary to have to depart downwind because that's the only way out of a landing site. For private ops, "Cat A" isn't a mandatory requirement, although it is preferable, for obvious reasons.

horizon flyer 28th Oct 2018 22:39

In one of the pictures of the wreck, correct me if I am wrong, but I think one of the tail rotor blades can be seen and it is in one piece and not bent. From this one could assume no collision with a fixed object and not under power when it hit the ground.

So may be a failure in the transmission. Did anybody else notice this?

OvertHawk 28th Oct 2018 22:40


Originally Posted by ShyTorque (Post 10295019)
I really can't provide an answer to that. Perhaps the wind velocity wasn't seen as the over-riding factor. It's not totally out of the ordinary to have to depart downwind because that's the only way out of a landing site. For private ops, "Cat A" isn't a mandatory requirement, although it is preferable, for obvious reasons.

It is invariably a requirement of a Rule 5 Congested area permission though, Shy, regardless of whether or not you're private.

Cabby 28th Oct 2018 22:43

police name all on board
 
Sky news have published the police statement at 22.09.
May they all RIP.
https://news.sky.com/story/live-leic...crash-11538203

Davef68 28th Oct 2018 22:44


Originally Posted by TheiC (Post 10295025)


It’s not anywhere I can find on their website. Don’t prolong the agony, post a link. Sadly, my own fears have already been confirmed outwith this forum.

https://leics.police.uk/news-appeals/news/2018/10/28/king-power-stadium-incident-five-believed-dead


The five people were on board the helicopter when the incident happened. While formal identification has not yet taken place, they are believed to be Leicester City Football Club chairman Vichai Srivaddhanaprabha, two members of his staff, Nursara Suknamai and Kaveporn Punpare, pilot Eric Swaffer and passenger Izabela Roza Lechowicz.
I beleive the passenger was also a pilot.

ShyTorque 28th Oct 2018 22:45


Originally Posted by horizon flyer (Post 10295023)
In one of the pictures of the wreck, correct me if I am wrong, but I think one of the tail rotor blades can be seen and it is in one piece and not bent. From this one could assume no collision with a fixed object and not under power when it hit the ground.

So may be a failure in the transmission. Did anybody else notice this?

I thought I could make out all three.

SASless 28th Oct 2018 22:45

It is there.....just read the latest update that lists the names.

ShyTorque 28th Oct 2018 22:46


Originally Posted by OvertHawk (Post 10295026)
It is invariably a requirement of a Rule 5 Congested area permission though, Shy, regardless of whether or not you're private.

Agreed!.....


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