Drone delays Westpac helicopter rescue
Had a quick search and didn't find this posted elsewhere
Drone delays air rescue of fisherman stranded on rocks in Gold Coast Seaway - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) "Helicopter rescuers have had to wait for a drone to leave the skies above a boat accident before an injured fisherman could be winched to safety on the Gold Coast." "CASA spokesman … [said] … "This is an absolute textbook example of what not to do with your drone" "The pilot of the drone involved has not been found." Hopefully he(?) will post on social media enabling police / CASA to go after them I wonder if it would be possible for rescue (and?) aircraft to be fitted with short-range jammers/disrupters to diminish the chance of this sort of thing happening in the future? |
The downwash would be sufficient to put it into the drink, provided they can keep it visual on the way.
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It was not the drone that delayed the rescue, it was the helo crew. Would the crew have delayed the rescue if a seagull was seen in the area? It could be the drone operator saw the helicopter had landed so didn't need to back off yet. Could be the drone operator was waiting for the helo to lift and would then know it's time to buzz off...
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Originally Posted by chopjock
(Post 10264743)
It was not the drone that delayed the rescue, it was the helo crew. Would the crew have delayed the rescue if a seagull was seen in the area? It could be the drone operator saw the helicopter had landed so didn't need to back off yet. Could be the drone operator was waiting for the helo to lift and would then know it's time to buzz off...
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please...... you’re kidding right? |
I love drone videos
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Not so different from a bird strike. Actually, I'd be much happier hitting a 1 lb DJI drone made out of plastic vs. a nice, solid, 8 lb Canada goose. Actually, I'd be much happier hitting nothing, but you know what I mean!
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Originally Posted by aa777888
(Post 10265170)
Not so different from a bird strike. Actually, I'd be much happier hitting a 1 lb DJI drone made out of plastic vs. a nice, solid, 8 lb Canada goose. Actually, I'd be much happier hitting nothing, but you know what I mean!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPzrnbr7snE The battery and engines of a DJI (or any other drone) is made of very high dense material that won't bulge or splatter when it hits the first layer of protection (your windscreen)… but will penetrate right trough and hit you, let's say, in the face. Imagine that happening with, say, 100kts.... the battery will probably end up somewhere in the back end of your skull……. If it hits a critical part of the helicopter… same story. A bird will be sliced to pieces and do some Damage. A part like the battery will most likely destroy the part of the helicopter it hits. The video damage you show is of a fixed wing, that was most likely travelling about twice or three times the speed of a helicopter if not more... Regards, Raymond |
Goose into a MRB seems like it would be a catastrophe - - I'd be very interested to know what would happen if a drone hit one. .
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Originally Posted by casper64
(Post 10265192)
And there, you are completely wrong!
... The video damage you show is of a fixed wing, that was most likely travelling about twice or three times the speed of a helicopter if not more... https://www.udayton.edu/blogs/udri/1...in-the-sky.php So the two videos are roughly comparable if we assume the Cessna in video I posted was doing a typical Cessna Conquest speed. However, I will agree that your argument about the density/compressibility of a typical LiIon battery has some merit. It would be interesting to see a more definitive study of the relative dangers of greater mass vs. higher density vs windscreens, rotor blades, etc. |
Regarding a goose hitting MRBs and being a catastrophe, heres my story...
the pilot of an AS350 was setting seismic bags. Noticed something catch his eye. Glanced up to see a ruffled grouse on short final for his rotor disk. uneventful return to staging area where the carcass was removed from the cooling air inlet and some stringy gut materials peeled off the roof and trans cowl. Some morbid streaks on the blades worthy of a B rated horror flick. back to drones... if this fisherman wasnt critical, there was no rush to pick him up. Why fly with the potential hazard if that was the case? |
The video damage you show is of a fixed wing, that was most likely travelling about twice or three times the speed of a helicopter if not more... |
and the damage sustained on that MRB at the tip will be dependant on the type and contruction. Which varies drastically.
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Originally Posted by krypton_john
(Post 10265210)
Goose into a MRB seems like it would be a catastrophe - - I'd be very interested to know what would happen if a drone hit one. .
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Originally Posted by Non-PC Plod
(Post 10265921)
I would also like to know what would happen if a drone hit a goose!
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and the damage sustained on that MRB at the tip will be dependant on the type and contruction. Which varies drastically. |
I disagree.
lets compare R22 and 214....and go. |
You go and fly them both into a drone and let us know how you get on #fascilecomparisons
You might be able to cut through small trees with the big Bell blades but, as already discussed, a lithium battery at 500 kts is going to be very different - but do feel free to try.... |
Hi guys,
For the record, I was the pilot for this and thought I would clarify a few things. We landed about fifty metres away on the rock wall to access the situation as all we were told over the radio was that a boat was being smashed on the rocks with an elderly gentlemen on board. He was unable to be moved by local surfers and rescue jet skiers due to both the waves on the rocks and his bad hip (hip replacement and the fact he was 78 years old). Our rescue crew was able to climb over rocks onto the boat and secure him in a rescue harness on the bow whilst myself and the aircrew waited for his radio call to let us know he was ready for a winch retrieval back into the chopper then to an ambulance (he had deep lacerations on his legs as well). Anyway, whilst we were on the ground waiting for the call with blades still turning, a drone was sighted above us approximately 20 metres ahead. It continued flying around us videoing as close as ten metres from the disc. We had to wait another five minutes for it to leave and I actually filmed it above us on my personal phone. It did hinder our operational response time and we were lucky the patient was secure with our crew and we were told the boat was fairly stable on the rocks at the time. If anyone here thinks I should have risked the crew, myself and the rescue boats and jetskis in the vicinity by becoming airborne whilst it flew within ten metres of our disc, then thats their opinion. Personally, I don't want to be the test pilot hitting a drone to see what happens, regardless of size and weight. I have already had a near miss with a phantom at 100 knots that passed under the rotor disc. The drone pilot who has yet to be identified has contacted the media to let them know he has 'awesome footage' of us sitting on the wall waiting to do the rescue. I will let the authorities that are 'very interested' in chasing that one up! I also refuse to get in a slinging match with drones vs helo's so don't bother if thats what you see here. I just thought people should know a few more of the facts about this job. Regards, Luke O'More (duke 996) |
Good call, Luke; well done :ok:
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Good job Luke, plenty here don't understand the process of SAR.:ok:
However, you have made the error of introducing facts into the speculation which won't impress some posters........... |
wanna talk about those batteries?
sure, they're a subject mass and the energy transfer would do some damage, but hardly catastophic. they aren't solid by any means. Most lithium batteries aren't. and they only weigh under 500grams. |
Get someone to throw one at your head and then tell me they aren't solid..............................
Back of a fag packet calculation would give Kinetic Energy of a 500g battery at 500kts (257 m/s) as 16,500 Joules - still think that won't hurt a Bell blade? |
Out of curiosity, are birdstrikes whilst maneuvering slowly or hovering in a helicopter common?
I can understand how a bird and a 150kt aircraft may meet before the bird has had time to get out of the way, but am guessing a goose or swan or for that matter a blue-tit will keep out of the way of a hovering helicopter? I suspect that in this mode of flight a drone is far likely to collide if they're anywhere near each other (i.e. filming or assisting at the same event). |
However, I will agree that your argument about the density/compressibility of a typical LiIon battery has some merit. It would be interesting to see a more definitive study of the relative dangers of greater mass vs. higher density vs windscreens, rotor blades, etc. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/drones-and-manned-aircraft-collisions-test-results Non-birdstrike Certified Helicopter Windscreens 5.2 The non-birdstrike certified helicopter windscreen proved to have a low resistance to all the classes of drones tested, with penetration through the windscreen shown to occur at speeds well below the normal cruising speed of a helicopter of that type. For the fixed-wing drone, which is itself capable of a significant speed in flight, it was found that the drone could penetrate a helicopter windscreen of this type even if the helicopter was stationary. 5.3 As general aviation (GA) aircraft do not have a requirement for birdstrike certification, the result from the non-birdstrike certified helicopter could be read across to GA aircraft with comparative severity in the result of a collision. Birdstrike Certified Helicopter Windscreens 5.4 The birdstrike certified helicopter windscreen was found to be much more resistant, but it was found that the quadcopter drones could penetrate these windscreens when the closing speed was similar to the helicopter’s typical cruising speed. The speed the fixed-wing drone can itself reach meant that it could penetrate the windscreen if the helicopter was moving at a speed significantly below the normal cruising speed. When the helicopter was stationary, however, it was shown that a fixed-wing drone, when flying at its maximum speed, was unlikely to penetrate this windscreen. Helicopter Tail Rotors 5.5 The modelling of helicopter tail rotors showed that they would be vulnerable to impacts with all types of drones. Due to the very high speed of a rotating tail rotor blade, it could be critically damaged by an impact with any drone. 5.6 Again, it should be noted that although the most accurate properties available were used, the helicopter tail rotor results were based on modelling only, with no live testing to calibrate the model. |
Out of curiosity, are birdstrikes whilst maneuvering slowly or hovering in a helicopter common? Some of the worst are the big soaring birds which tend to be less easy to see as they can be almost stationary and then suddenly get very big in the windscreen - there are plenty of stories about them ending up in the cockpit, some still alive and quite pi**ed off. |
Two of my innumerable birds strikes of note.
Germany, mid seventies, low level over Germany. A flock of starling or sparrows erupt from some trees and I go IFR in birds. Lots of banging and crashing so I decide to proceed to the nearest RAFG airfield to, if nothing else, clean the blood off the windscreens. The base is a Harrier base and as soon as I told them I had had a birdstrike they went into full emergency mode because it was a Harrier base and apparently they are allergic to birds. On shutdown I had a lot of important people surveying the damage. I took the most important up to the top deck, opened the intake and pointed out the mass of feathers and bits attached to intake struts and compressor with the normal statement that the Turmo IIIC merely converts birds to fuel. Meanwhile my crewman was levering out carcasses from the rotor head assembly. We washed the windscreens, fired it up and punched off back to base. The other was in China where I ran into a cormorant flying illegal IFR at 2.500 metres. It collected the radar radome and dented in so badly that it jammed the scanner which was quite inconvenient because I was dodging cu-nimbs at the time. However we survived and landed safely. The cost of a new radome was horrendous and would have taken a couple of days to arrive. The local car repair shop had it as new in an afternoon. |
As a student engineer I was told a (probably apocryphal) story about British Rail borrowing a "chicken cannon" normally used to test jet engines, to test the windshield of a high speed train. A chook was shot at the train, and not only penetrated the windshield, but the rear wall of the driver's cabin, doing quite a bit of damage to the machinery behind.
Upon discussing this unexpected result with the supplier of the cannon, the famous words were uttered: "You did thaw the chicken, didn't you??" Mass alone, momentum (mass x velocity), and even kinetic energy (1/2mv^2), is not the whole story; hardness is very relevant. |
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 10266728)
Get someone to throw one at your head and then tell me they aren't solid..............................
Back of a fag packet calculation would give Kinetic Energy of a 500g battery at 500kts (257 m/s) as 16,500 Joules - still think that won't hurt a Bell blade? Not as much as you think it would. I'm not denying damage, i'm disputing catastrophic damage. practice your reading comprehension |
I'm not denying damage, i'm disputing catastrophic damage. |
Originally Posted by GrayHorizonsHeli
(Post 10267339)
Not as much as you think it would. I'm not denying damage, i'm disputing catastrophic damage. practice your reading comprehension
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I've known birds come through the windscreen and hit the front seat occupants in the upper body/head, causing injuries. If a drone did so, and hard parts hit the pilot in the face, I doubt he would survive.
I've also known birds come through and hit the engine levers, shutting down the engines. I've also had a sea eagle take great objection to the helicopter I was hovering in "his" territory (SAR training with a winchman out on the cable) and he circled us a few times before attempting to attack us and almost flew through the disc. Those birds are very big..... so we cleared off! It wouldn't have been so easy if it had been a real rescue. Seagulls don't seem to see helicopters as a threat to themselves. They don't have airborne predators and if you watch a large flock of them they often bump into each other in flight. I've had a few fly lazily into the rotor disc over the years, they made no effort to avoid us. During a rescue there is enough to concentrate on without having to worry about some idiot flying a drone in close proximity. |
They don't have airborne predators and if you watch a large flock of them they often bump into each other in flight. |
Mass alone, momentum (mass x velocity), and even kinetic energy (1/2mv^2), is not the whole story; hardness is very relevant. |
Thanks, I had expected birds would be more sensible. Seems I was wrong.
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Crab, Here I thought you were splitting hairs commenting on a big bell blade cutting trees yet being so disturbed structurally hitting a meagre 500g multi packed lithium battery encased in plastic.
Lemme take my camping hatchet to the tree and then the battery and see which one takes more force to get thru. |
Crab, Here I thought you were splitting hairs commenting on a big bell blade cutting trees yet being so disturbed structurally hitting a meagre 500g multi packed lithium battery encased in plastic. Lemme take my camping hatchet to the tree and then the battery and see which one takes more force to get thru. |
As in hardness. Do you read anyones post?
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Interesting comparison of birdstrike vs drone strike:
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...airplane-wing# |
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