Eurocopter crash off Queensland north coast
Just reported. 5 aboard, no reports on condition. Seems to have crashed around Cairns. Noticed a rescue helicopter heading south east (out to sea) out of Townsville.
|
ABC says Hardy Reef which is off Airlie Beach
|
Originally Posted by 1a sound asleep
(Post 10091207)
ABC says Hardy Reef which is off Airlie Beach
|
Very sad. Reporting fatalities.
|
|
Reporting 2 dead, H120.
|
Originally Posted by Dick Smith
(Post 10091219)
Very sad. Reporting fatalities.
|
There seems to have been a few too many ditchings around OZ & the US this last fortnight. I believe all the helicopters had pop out floats, which usually work well, but in these last 3 cases none of the helicopters landed safely on the water which would have prevented the fatalities. Pilots can only practice water landings on fixed floats which are easy but obviously can't practice with pop outs. I wonder if this is causing these tragic ditchings?
|
Helicopter down on Reef
|
Originally Posted by Nigel Osborn
(Post 10091272)
Pilots can only practice water landings on fixed floats which are easy but obviously can't practice with pop outs. I wonder if this is causing these tragic ditchings?
|
a sad week for RW
|
Originally Posted by Nigel Osborn
(Post 10091272)
..Pilots can only practice water landings on fixed floats which are easy but obviously can't practice with pop outs. I wonder if this is causing these tragic ditchings?
|
Rest in Peace
|
In the scramble to get the news out, media seem to have ruffled the ATSB's feathers, erroneously reporting that the ATSB had confirmed fatalities. Whatever the protocol, it seems that sadly the reports were accurate, with the Queensland Police now confirming that 2 passengers, believed to be overseas tourists had been recovered deceased. 2 more, along with the pilot are receiving treatment for injuries.
|
For those who have done helicopter underwater escape training would understand how unlikely it is that an untrained passenger would be able to self-extricate themselves from a submerged helicopter.
|
...unlikely it is that an untrained passenger... It's not their fault, they probably only wanted to take a convenient short trip over water without needing to have a masters degree in what can go wrong. Now when I sit as pax on a Boeing or Airbus and look at the emergency card depicting a fully intact airliner floating on water with all life rafts deployed.... I know of only one incident where it actually happened, further perpetuating the belief that it does exactly what it says on the card. |
It's being reported in the media now that it was "a botched landing attempt". There has to be more to it than that...
|
Originally Posted by gulliBell
(Post 10091503)
For those who have done helicopter underwater escape training would understand how unlikely it is that an untrained passenger would be able to self-extricate themselves from a submerged helicopter.
In my former life as a commercial photographer, I've only flown with doors off and either belted in the seat or (rarely) on a harness with quick release. And I know how to swim, which helped in one actual fixed-wing ditching many years ago. So I was always pretty sure I could escape even if the helo quickly inverted, as long as I wasn't injured otherwise. But tourists won't be thinking like that, and it might be a closed doors flight. |
Is there a common protocol for helicopter ditchings? What I mean is -- when there is enough time to know the ditching is inevitable during an auto, is it common practice to tell pax to unlatch seatbelts and brace? Maybe even open the doors (if possible)? Stay strapped in and wait for the violent movement to cease before releasing your seatbelt and escaping (if you have kept a hand holding on to something that will help you find your exit). |
Australia's Greatest Aviation Expert, GT, was just on the TV. He was asked if the EC120 had two engines.
His reply was (and I may have missed a word) "No, not like the EC130..." He should be our greatest EXPORT. |
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 10091802)
..Stay strapped in and wait for the violent movement to cease before releasing your seatbelt and escaping (if you have kept a hand holding on to something that will help you find your exit).
|
5 up in a 120 is quite heavy in the warm, could be a handful. i wonder how much wind there was.
|
Originally Posted by Nigel Osborn
(Post 10091272)
There seems to have been a few too many ditchings around OZ & the US this last fortnight. I believe all the helicopters had pop out floats, which usually work well, but in these last 3 cases none of the helicopters landed safely on the water which would have prevented the fatalities. Pilots can only practice water landings on fixed floats which are easy but obviously can't practice with pop outs. I wonder if this is causing these tragic ditchings?
You always were a great pilot. |
Gulli - that's what this sentence meant
(if you have kept a hand holding on to something that will help you find your exit). I didn't go for the full nine yards of HUET drills as I was keeping my answer simple to match the question. I've been doing HUET drills since 1983 and most recently in January so I'm quite aware of the procedures. |
Okay, thanks for the info (re seatbelt release).
As I said earlier, I survived one ditching in fixed wing, probably as well-handled as it could be with fixed gear that was going to flip the plane on contact with the water (Otter). I thought maybe with a reasonably controlled auto into the water with a helicopter it might not be that violent. But that's a best-case scenario. So, belts on until motion stops, got it. |
Let’s hope we can get information promptly re the cause so we can all work to reducing all accidents.
The ATSB have not yet released the report on the Richard Green EC135 fatal. It happened over two years ago! What is going on? |
Did HUET in Auckland in `94 as practice for getting out of the telly heli.
The most disconcerting bit was the roll when blindfolded. Understandable that most pax would utterly freak out - and be unable to escape if turned upside down. |
The HUET courses I did 25 years ago were excellent when I had occasion to travel/work out of the company AS355 as 'SLF'
Blindfolded and one door randomly locked so you had to crawl over the seat to the other one if your door wouldn't open. But it is pretty easy in a warm water swimming pool compared to the ocean and a real helo ! After a few times, you can do it more calmly, but it is a stretch to expect untrained people to remain calm and egress successfully. |
I’m a scuba diving, surfing, strong swimming, experienced pilot.
The panic was barely contained on my first HUET. Despite being confident and prepared, ending up, strapped in a cage, upside down with water up the nose is very disconcerting. A surprise ditching, ending up inverted, for a non HUET passenger - a fluke to survive. |
Since there is a degree of discussion on underwater escape, some inaccuracies already corrected, it may be worth reinforcing essential actions taught during HUET.
How an operator puts across these essentials to a paying passenger is the big question, along with having the right equipment in the first place. Even the choice of aircraft which can ensure better safety such as a twin with pop out floats or a single with fixed floats, rather than (in this case) a single with popouts. Corporate knowledge can be lost and the lessons hard won in the past can be overlooked when experience is thrown out with ageing pilots and engineers. |
John, we are both too old to pass on advice that may save lives!
|
Originally Posted by Dick Smith
(Post 10092225)
What is going on?
My point is the ATSB spend years developing a report which mostly mirrors what professional pilots/engineers suspected was the root cause all along. They have to get it right & people don’t always tell the truth so evidence & accuracy is more important than a timeline but the current timelines aren’t reasonable. I’ve been involved in 1 investigation through the ATSB which had all people on board including the pilot tell the same story, & yet it took 2 years for the Report to be released, & when it was released it summarised exactly what the pilot said on day 1. I’m sure that file spent most of its time sitting around on a desk somewhere. Maybe we should set a 2 day timeline, whatever the consensus is on pprune after after 2 days is the root cause.:ok: |
...other things that stick in the mind from HUET.
The warning not to hold onto the door handles as you hit the water - because lots of people break their thumbs or fingers by doing so. How bloody freezing 10 degrees Celsius sea temperature is when tipped into a nice flat pool with no swell or wind - in your clothes. How hard it is to climb into a life-raft in your sodden freezing clothes from the same freezing water. |
So it seems that experienced, pilots that have done either one or multiple HUET exercises state that it is difficult proposition to get out of a submersed helicopter, and that it might be very difficult to successfully extricate oneself in a real water emergency. Also that, they, with that experience believe it very unlikely that a paying passenger would, without that training be able to get themselves out. So what is a pilot in commands, duty of care to a passenger entail, in every over water flight.
Pre Flight Briefing should start " Here is your life jacket I am now going to brief you on what happens if we ditch at sea; but may as well not listen because if it all goes bad I am really the only one that has a chance to get out because I have had all this HUET training that you haven't, and try as I may, even if I get out by the time I do that your toast anyway, if you don't work it out for yourself." So can we as pilots in good conscious take passengers over water? Do we care? Is it unfair that with my training if it all goes bad I know I have a (good) chance to get out, but my passengers don't. Why is it HUET for the pilot and not the passenger? ( I know the answer) |
Originally Posted by as350nut
(Post 10092371)
Why is it HUET for the pilot and not the passenger? ( I know the answer)
And the Australian offshore workforce? Etc etc..... |
We now use the MK50 Jacket with Category A EBS so at least pax have approx 2 minutes of breathing air. The downside is that the MK50 jackets are heavy and not 100% comfortable. Fine for offshore in a 92 but probably not much good in a 120 without any training.
|
We now use the MK50 Jacket with Category A EBS so at least pax have approx 2 minutes of breathing air |
Why is it HUET for the pilot and not the passenger? ( I know the answer) I made a 4-minute video of how the different seatbelts, door handles, sliding and hinged doors, intercoms and lifejackets wortked. All the customers were interested in was the well-constructed girl strapping into the full front-seat harness (Lift, and separate, like the old Berlei ad) and using the oral inflation tube. But I had done my bit, and if they didn't listen it was out of my hands. |
I do not consider HUET, EBS nor rebreather to be a joke. EBS has the longer duration but must not be deployed to early in order to exhaust the duration before splash.
Sorting it out when already upside down is theoretically possible but I think it is a remote possibility (also considering cold shock gasping in). What worries me is that the EBS is still a dry training (in the Netherlands?) with indefinite duration. The HUET is still a rebreather course. (I would be extremely happy to be corrected, my knowledge dates back 2 years) Self Loading Bear |
i wonder how much wind there was. |
All times are GMT. The time now is 20:37. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.