It had potential disaster written all over it, right from the beginning.
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Originally Posted by megan
(Post 11066614)
Things are not quite so simple. When you understand the issues facing the pilot you perhaps can understand. His departure from home base required maximum take off power, being so heavy, actually over permissible take off weight, the engine was min spec performance wise, the wind was from the right side, pushing in more right pedal requires more power for the tail rotor/fenestron, power being sent to the tail rotor/fenestron is power that's not available to the main rotor. Forgetting about any performance benefit from the wind he, more than likely, would have had his hands full trying to keep the engine within limits. Just my guess. The pilot commented that he was "busy", a sign that he was anxious/concerned/up tight/in full knowledge he was facing a difficult approach perhaps.
Accepted. |
He had a wind from the right which helps in a right power pedal aircraft. = stable so far
He planned to yaw left to align with the pontoon putting the wind further round. = reduction in right pedal to yaw left When he attempted the go around, his yaw pedal position was very far behind where it needed to be and then he got weather-cocked to downwind and panicked. = needed enough right pedal to stop the original yaw and more to compensate for the handful of power pulled. I don't know what Tq warning indications there are on the 120 but the Gazelle had a red flashing light that then went on steady. In this respect I agree with Megan than concern about overTqing might have prevented him using full right pedal. So instead of a mild overTq taking a couple of hours off the transmission - he crashed the aircraft instead!!!!! |
I'm not familiar with this aircraft type. I just assumed it would have a digital engine control that wouldn't let you do anything too nasty to the engine and it would restrict power to a limit and then bleed off RRPM if you applied more collective.
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Originally Posted by gulliBell
(Post 11067382)
I'm not familiar with this aircraft type. I just assumed it would have a digital engine control that wouldn't let you do anything too nasty to the engine and it would restrict power to a limit and then bleed off RRPM if you applied more collective.
The Tq limit below Vy (65kts) is 103%, but you are able to pull through that up to 110% for a transient of 5 seconds without penalty. A horn comes on after 1.5s in the transient range to let you know you are there, and nothing on the aircraft would stop you from pulling beyond in order to avoid an accident. |
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 11067312)
[...] He planned to yaw left to align with the pontoon putting the wind further round. = reduction in right pedal to yaw left When he attempted the go around, his yaw pedal position was very far behind where it needed to be and then he got weather-cocked to downwind and panicked. = needed enough right pedal to stop the original yaw and more to compensate for the handful of power pulled. I don't know what Tq warning indications there are on the 120 but the Gazelle had a red flashing light that then went on steady. In this respect I agree with Megan than concern about overTqing might have prevented him using full right pedal. So instead of a mild overTq taking a couple of hours off the transmission - he crashed the aircraft instead!!!!! [emphasis by Hot and Hi] The below has relevance:
Originally Posted by Hot and Hi
(Post 11065943)
[...] new civilian pilots are first and foremost taught to not over control and to avoid harsh, rapid or abrupt control inputs. [...] When this yaw problem develops (ie in the hover, or when transitioning from slow forward flight to hover) we are (in a H120, Gazelle or Guimbal anyway) already close to max power. Again, pilots primary fear is to avoid over torquing that engine by commanding much of that power sapping Fenestron in the back. From the actual ATSB Transport Safety Report. Page 35: Following the [mishap's] pilot’s check to line with the chief pilot on 13 March 2018, the chief pilot noted on the check form that the pilot needed to be gentle on the pedals [emphasis by Hot and Hi]. The chief pilot advised that all new EC120B pilots were coached the same way and the same comment could be found on many of the check ride records for those pilots. (4) [...] If at this point [in OGE hover just before arriving overhead the pontoon - amended by Hot and Hi] the helicopter was at maximum take-off power, further application of right pedal would not be available (without exceeding engine limitations or ceasing the climb). (5) The loss of airspeed experienced by a helicopter turning into a downwind position at low speed increases the power requirement[...]. If the use of right pedal was limited by the available power during the initial phase of the go-around, there would not be enough power for a recovery of the left yaw at this point without exceeding engine limitations. [...]there was a reduced power margin available to the pilot on the final approach to the pontoon. This was due to:
And finally Page 77, confirming what crab said:
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Stall of vertical stabiliser / tail fin?
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 11067312)
He had a wind from the right which helps in a right power pedal aircraft. = stable so far
When I did my type conversion on one of those French Fenestron-equipped helicopters, I was taught the that there is a specific problem with wind from the right, related to the stalling of the vertical fin:
It was said that many pilots got caught out this way. The convex training put specific emphasis on sensitising new pilots for this specific "gotcha" scenario. |
Probably most have seen this paper already, but for the few who may not have it has some relevance: ERF2019-0017.
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We operate an EC120 amongst other types. When flying heavy you are in constant fear of an over torque. Takes you back to the robby days, of having to plan out every approach carefully beforehand to ensure you don't bump it over the red line. Everything (wind etc) needs to be stacked in your favour. In my experience it is a huge distraction. The problem is that the engine produces a lot more power than the transmission will handle, so there is always a hesitation to put in a boot load of right pedal as this is the quickest way to an over TQ. I reckon that was at least a consideration by the pilot here, if not a large part of the cause of the accident. This is NOT the case in the other fenestron equipped machine I fly regularly, the EC130 where you can happily use up all the pedal travel without pushing the FLI into the red.
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Are we saying the EC-120 is poorly designed?
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Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 11069451)
Are we saying the EC-120 is poorly designed?
It does not have a large power margin like an AS350 B2/3 for example, or an easily ignored power limit like an R44 at sea level, for example. Much like many helicopters (B47/B206/A109A/B222 for examples) it requires some thought, intelligent and appropriate techniques applied, especially when loaded near max gross weight. I’d rate it’s performance as very similar to a B206III (But it won’t run out of TR authority, and it will record any exceedance’s) Considering it is a much newer design, and the size of the boot - the performance is disappointing*, and leads to pilot induced problems. But you can’t depart vertically in B222B at max gross weight either, even on a cool night. Well, I can’t. *Potentially designed this way, to prevent competition with other Airbus products. |
Every helicopter with a vertical fin will experience changes in the lift it produces at various speeds and the Fenestron equipped aircraft just have bigger fins than most - as Hot and Hi says, to offload the Fenestron in forward flight.
I think it less likely to have been a factor in this accident since he was already in a low speed situation when the yaw started and the main effect of the vertical fin would have been felt as he yawed to give himself a downwind component - a tendency to weathercock towards complete downwind would have been the result, not a stall. |
I think we are all in agreement that another pilot crashed another helicopter that had nothing wrong with it. The next example is just around the corner and will appear here soon enough for sure.
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Originally Posted by Twist & Shout
(Post 11069520)
I personally think the EC-120 is a delightful helicopter.
It does not have a large power margin like an AS350 B2/3 for example, or an easily ignored power limit like an R44 at sea level, for example. Much like many helicopters (B47/B206/A109A/B222 for examples) it requires some thought, intelligent and appropriate techniques applied, especially when loaded near max gross weight. I’d rate it’s performance as very similar to a B206III (But it won’t run out of TR authority, and it will record any exceedance’s) Considering it is a much newer design, and the size of the boot - the performance is disappointing*, and leads to pilot induced problems. But you can’t depart vertically in B222B at max gross weight either, even on a cool night. Well, I can’t. *Potentially designed this way, to prevent competition with other Airbus products. I recall pleasure flights with the Bell 206 where the ground crew brought the fat father with the fat mother and the fat kids just after refuelling - forcing the doors shut.... When I was young and not bold enough to say - NO Creeped away in the ground cushion (but that's another thread here on PPRUNE) Only, that the EC120 is recording over limits - while other conventional helicopters doesn't - shouldn't prevent a pilot to over torque - if it is required to survive. Its shameful - and shouldn't be done on e regular basis - but better than crashing ... If the other helicopters could tell, how often they have been mistreated - you would have to listen to long stories... |
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