Slightly off topic... is Kingsfield Helicopters at Perth still going? I would imagine recreational helicopter training in Scotland is not high on most people’s financial agenda. Got my ppl(h) there some years ago, good bunch.

True, but in the terms of reporting an "accident" to the AAIB, and them investigating it, then the definition is:
As there was no intention of flight, it wasn't an "accident".

Folded a couple of years ago, not enough demand unfortunately.

Don't suppose there was much intent to roll it over and write it off either:E

What a strange definition of “accident” the AAIB apparently uses. If the engineer had inadvertently taken off, then decided to fly around Perth for a while doing a bit of sightseeing before running out of fuel and crashing into a school, there would be no “accident”.

You really need to get out more. Don't know which risk assessment standard you use, but said mechanic ground run program has been part of the company required 135 documentation since before my time and was included in the SMS docs prior to my leaving.

Considering over 300 mechanics have the ability to ground run aircraft, multiple types in most cases, it is far from "just lucky" we made it through the past years. It boils down to some people can multi-task and some can't. But this system has been used by the manority of operators on this side of the pond to great success.

OK so how much training do you get before you are allowed to conduct rotors running ground runs by yourself? Any hands on training in case the aircraft does get airborne?

Yeah great bunch but sadly no longer there. Sad times really for private helicopter flying in Scotland. I think the cost of ownership what with recalls for blades/bladder tanks/ new head systems etc has put a great deal of people off. Going off topic I’ve always wondered why no one in Scotland started a group flying a helicopter. 6 guys all spreading the costs etc and if one was an engineer, what a bonus. There’s one operating very successfully down south for many years now. Anyone interested PM me, sorry for drift!!!!

RFM training on start procedures/run procedures/emergency procedures with qualified pilot. Then 5 ground runs to the pilot's satisfaction after which he signs your run-up card. Then 1 recurrent start with a pilot annually.

No. Aircraft tie-downs to be used when available. Controls to be locked or frictioned unless ground test written procedure requires control movement. No hydraulic checks permitted with rotors turning. Plus additional limitations for wheeled aircraft.

I have trained engineers for engine runs and emergencies in the aircraft and in the sim but never for rotors running checks.

If the aircraft is tied down, that is one thing but just having the controls frictioned or even locked is potentially hazardous. Allowing control movements would seem to automatically require a pilot.

The fact that no hyd checks are allowed seems to indicate that someone has at least thought through the potential for the inadvertent airborne scenario as do the extra limitations for wheeled aircraft due to the propensity for ground resonance.

Do you think this was in their manual........under MPA.130

(1) the operator should ensure that the qualification of personnel, other than pilots, who are authorised to conduct maintenance runs is described in the appropriate manual;

One of the main reasons I obtained my licence was because its was VERY difficult getting pilot(s) out of the warm and comfy office to do the "boring" numerous repetitive ground runs in the cold and wet for diagnosis or balance checks. Especially early or late in the day, and heavens forbid at weekends, just for ground runs.

Would have been a good idea to get the chief pilot to give a few kicks up deserving backsides. If a ground run needs doing on my aircraft, I want to do it, irrespective of the weather. In the past I've driven almost 100 miles to get to the maintenance base for a ground run. On one occasion, I was expected to do one run for a track and balance confirmation then fly back to base. As it was, I stayed overnight and did twenty or so ground runs before it came into line the following afternoon (when a different engineer was called in and was able to point out where the original one was going wrong....and yes, it was a weekend).

No "apparently" about it:
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...rious-incident

It is a very military view that all things flying are governed by pilots when in fact they are not. The FAA, CAA and EASA do not mandate that pilots do ground runs. Only operators create this rule...and, obviously, there are a great deal of operators that don't require pilots for their ground running checks.

However pilots may feel about this, they are wrong in this case...unless they can change the regulations.

Even in the military I once declared a 'D' state (AOG) to Command for the lack of a pilot for ground runs, and we remained at that state for five days before someone with a tick in the box thought to turn up! Imagine the wages and facility costs to any civvy company for that sort of shortage affecting ten-plus engineers and support staff.

Interesting point, who's manual?? As these provisions fall under and listed in CAT, NCO, SPO etc for maintenance runs as detailed in the operators manual, does this mean that an engineer needs to be trained/checked out by each operator to their specific requirements?🤔

Or am I missing something?

Hope the guy has a speedy recovery, he’s a hard working man. Every time I walk past his shop he’s grafting away fixing choppers.

AOG or not, the aircraft wasn't going to be used if there was no pilot to fly it.

And imagine the cost of an aircraft rolled over because it needed a pilot instead of an engineer to do the ground run but no one wanted to wait.............

I get the fact that engineers are great - I have relied heavily on their skills, graft and understanding for many years - but, when it comes to rotors running a non-tied down helicopter by someone who hasn't been taught to fly it just in case, then regardless of what the rules say (written by other engineers I suspect) I think it is plain stupid.

The Norwegian N Sea operators have been doing engineer ground runs for as long as I can remember. Obviously they have some training and a company approval to do so. Yes it is only the cliquey pilots who think they are so clever that no mere mortal could be capable of starting a helicopter safely. But despite that, more pilots break helicopters running on the ground, than engineers do!

Your opinion? Or is there clear evidence?

About which bit?

or is it cliquey engineers that dismiss pilot training as irrelevant for rotors turning ground runs?

rather a vague assertion - based on some database of accidents and incidents?????

I'm with you. In this modern world of risk mitigation, engineers conducting ground runs adds unnecessary risk. In most companies I've worked for, newly converted pilots will not do single pilot engaged ground runs, so why would an engineer with virtually no "aircraft" training (in comparison) be allowed to do so.

Ultimately I would have thought the insurance companies and then owners are likely to be most influential in deciding whether or not engineers should do ground runs as time goes on - they have the most to lose! I know what I think - a helicopter with an engine running is only a small error by man or machine from needing a pilot's skill to control.

Any word on what actually caused this Perth accident? Must be known by a number of people already, surely?

A slightly tongue in cheek assertion based on the premis that most ground runs are carried out by pilots and therefore the chances are that most ground run accidents occur with pilots at the controls.

But the underlying point is that plenty of pilots have messed up whilst carrying out ground runs. Why are you not clamouring for them to be disallowed to do ground runs? Oh, I forgot which clique you are in :)

that childish jibe really doesn't warrant a response:ugh:

This debate seems to be going the same way as the argument that single engined helicopters are safer than twins because they don't crash where singles aren't allowed to fly in the first place.

As far as I'm concerned, pilots and engineers work together best as a team and should always endeavour to do so. I do my best to help engineers do the best they can to help me have a fully serviceable aircraft to fly, even if it means carrying out tasks that are not strictly my responsibility.

A helicopter with rotors turning is a potentially very dangerous machine. Starting one up is relatively straightforward, but keeping it safe once the rotors start turning is a different matter, especially when operating diagnostic equipment which provides a distraction. For example, if ground resonance occurs, there are two options - either shut down the engine/s and apply the rotor brake, which needs to be done very rapidly to be effective, or to lift off. Obviously, anyone not fully trained to fly the helicopter has only the former option, whereas a pilot has both.

Shy - concur completely :ok:

They control the laws of physics?

Has an engineer doing a ground run ever had ground resonance, been forced to take-off and it all end horribly wrong?

I think this thread has shown that engineers, over the years, have done thousands of ground runs and accidents as a result have been very few and far between.

Everything has to be taken in the proper context.
Proper training is simply the only answer.
Want your engineer to run your aircraft...train them to that point to do it safely.
When are pilots undergoing flight school allowed to solo and start the machine alone while the instructor sits inside drinking his morning coffee? That should be the benchmark
Ive worked with many twatwaffles, both engineers and pilots. No one group can claim superiority over the other.
Some pilots i dont trust with a grease gun. Some engineers shouldnt even turn on the battery switch. But with the proper care, control and training...it can be a successful event.

In certain country you are given the permission to do ground run with some internal training. France used to allow this practice. Japan too.

...and yet you did! As I have said, engineer ground runs are entirely routine in Norway, so my suggestion is that you get in touch with the Norwegian operators to let them know how they have been so wrong for all these years. Surely it is your duty to save the fools from themselves?

Ah ...it is so nice to see a return to the good old daze of accusations and insults!
So amusing .
Must go and get some popcorn and a beer.
Carry on!

Maybe we'd better wait to see the outcome of the one at Perth...

too late - you've already retired:E

I was always a bit of a proponent of training and qualifying of engineers to carry out ground runs within the organisation that I used to work for. Apart from simulator and aircraft training I would have suggested that collective remained locked down and consideration should be given to limiting runs to ground idle.

On the subject of ground resonance, I can't help thinking that anyone who starts up a modern helicopter that has just come out of maintenance and then experiences 'ground resonance' should just shut things down as quickly as possible - I certainly wouldn't want to go flying in it!!

Cheers

TeeS i

I have experienced ground resonance on startup following maintenance twice and both times was lucky enough to be able to shut down quickly to avoid a rollover.

However, both occasion required control of the cyclic as well as the throttles, just to oppose the rolling moments and give enough time for throttles and rotor brake.

A sudden panic call form Ops. There is a Puma running outside with two engineers in it not knowing what to do!

I hoof down the stairs and across the pan to this Puma which had the blades sailing at low Rrpm and one could hear them banging into the droop stops.

For those that don't know the 330 Puma the start system consists of a switch. Lift up and release and it goes into automatic start. Pressing it down just runs the starter motor which is what they had meant to do.

I went in through the cabin, knelt down on the jump seat, centralised the cyclic with my left hand and shut down the engine with my right. Then I applied the rotor brake.

They check the droop stops, which were OK and then there was a one sided conversation between them and the chief engineer.