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Originally Posted by gulliBell
(Post 10056678)
I'm curious what people's understanding of dead mans curve is, and how you might apply a HV chart in an operational context.
From the eye witness account the helicopter was out of control, and the tail boom was chopped off before it hit the ground. Engine failure is still a possibility...the eye witness description might fit a low RRPM situation during an auto-rotational descent. Hope the survivors are on way to recovery and managing to provide any cirtical information just before the accident. Cheers |
Just a thought.
Lets say the pilot flies in gusty/turbulent conditions, orbits for a place to land?! for maybe a ''land as soon as possible'' scenario?!, bleeds off his airspeed inadvertently and ends up in a decent with zero indicated airspeed and tailwind at 7-8 thousand feet Density altitude with a full load of pax..... |
That still shouldn't result in chopping the tail off - if that is what happened.
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Crab,
Indeed, IF that is the case. |
it's possible to chop your tail off in most types
some types you have to try harder tech failures particularly to aero surfaces on the tail can help the pilot acheive tail chop one example is the 365 of our passed friend CF where tail was chopped EC130 has known tail cracking issues to boom and horiz stabilizer very unlikely to be engine although all things are possible |
Everyone is assuming, based on sketchy witness info (we all know how accurate that can be), that there was a tail strike.
Could that have been a secondary effect? Driveshaft failures can also damage the tail can they not? The prelim NTSB report will hopefully contain something more scientific, especially having interviewed the pilot and pax. |
Originally Posted by HughMartin
(Post 10057500)
...Show me the evidence that demonstrates that single engined helicopters have a lower engine failure rate PER INSTALLED ENGINE than multi engines helicopters, excluding intentional precautionary shut-downs .. |
I might win the Lotto and get lucky with the girlfriend and her twin sister too!
Can you add just one more “if” to your conjecture?
Originally Posted by Nubian
(Post 10059779)
Just a thought.
Lets say the pilot flies in gusty/turbulent conditions, orbits for a place to land?! for maybe a ''land as soon as possible'' scenario?!, bleeds off his airspeed inadvertently and ends up in a decent with zero indicated airspeed and tailwind at 7-8 thousand feet Density altitude with a full load of pax..... |
NTSB preliminary report out:
Location: Peach Springs, AZ Accident Number: WPR18FA087 Date & Time: 02/10/2018, 1715 MST Registration: N155GC Aircraft: EUROCOPTER EC130 Injuries: 3 Fatal, 4 Serious Flight Conducted Under: Part 135: Air Taxi & Commuter - Non-scheduled - Sightseeing On February 10, 2018, about 1715 mountain standard time, an Airbus Helicopters EC130 B4 helicopter, N155GC, was destroyed when it impacted a canyon wash while on an approach to land at Quartermaster landing zone near Peach Springs, Arizona. The commercial pilot and three passengers sustained serious injuries and three passengers were fatally injured. The airtour flight was operated by Papillon Airways, Inc. under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 136. The helicopter departed Boulder City Municipal Airport, Boulder City, Nevada at 1635 and had intended to land at Quartermaster landing zone, a group of landing pads within Quartermaster canyon. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and a company flight plan had been filed. A review of the recorded radar data showed that the helicopter departed Boulder City and continued on the Green 4 standard helicopter route prescribed in the Grand Canyon West Special Flight Rules Area 50-2. Witnesses reported that as the helicopter neared the vicinity of Quartermaster, they observed it on a flight path consistent with the pilot aligning to make a downriver-wind landing to a pad on the west. The helicopter began to slow after it passed over the river and maintained a southern course as it entered a canyon wash adjacent to the landing pads. While maintaining the same altitude, the helicopter entered a nose-high attitude and then began a left turn toward the Quartermaster landing zone. During the turn, the helicopter transitioned into a nose-low attitude and as it began to face the landing pads it began to slightly drift aft. The helicopter then maneuvered into a nose-level configuration and continued in the left turn. Subsequently, the helicopter made at least two 360° left turn revolutions as it descended into the wash below where it impacted terrain and a postcrash fire ensued. |
WTF is a canyon wash?
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skadi |
crab,
Often referred to as a "dry wash" for obvious reasons. |
Preliminary Repory
What is the report saying, if anything? Maybe the long winded explanations make sense to somebody who is familiar with the area?
The helicopter then maneuvered into a nose-level configuration |
Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 10060383)
I might win the Lotto and get lucky with the girlfriend and her twin sister too!
Can you add just one more “if” to your conjecture? |
Couldn't they just call it a gully?
And what do they mean by a downriver-wind landing? Do they mean he is heading downriver or heading down wind or both? The nose high attitude followed by the turn and then a nose low attitude whilst drifting aft has me imagining some disorientation and then recognition of aft drift which was corrected by shoving the nose forward. Was he in fact affected by brown-out on approach as I had thought earlier? That report hardly clears anything up and, as hot and hi says, isn't brilliantly worded. |
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Having never seen a EC-130....can anyone enlighten me about possible Yaw Control issues at the loading and DA the aircraft was operating at when it crashed?
Does the 130 have similar limitations similar to the Bell 206 series at certain altitudes/wind directions? Two 360 rotations as described does suggest a possible lack of sufficient yaw output or a loss of thrust due to a failure of some kind. I too wonder what the “down river/wind” comment was actually saying. Was the approach down wind? |
WTF is a canyon wash |
Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 10060971)
Having never seen a EC-130....can anyone enlighten me about possible Yaw Control issues at the loading and DA the aircraft was operating at when it crashed?
Does the 130 have similar limitations similar to the Bell 206 series at certain altitudes/wind directions? Two 360 rotations as described does suggest a possible lack of sufficient yaw output or a loss of thrust due to a failure of some kind. I too wonder what the “down river/wind” comment was actually saying. Was the approach down wind? Suggesting that he turned to face up river and into wind. Just my interpretation of it. HTC |
Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 10060971)
Having never seen a EC-130....can anyone enlighten me about possible Yaw Control issues at the loading and DA the aircraft was operating at when it crashed?
Does the 130 have similar limitations similar to the Bell 206 series at certain altitudes/wind directions? Two 360 rotations as described does suggest a possible lack of sufficient yaw output or a loss of thrust due to a failure of some kind. I too wonder what the “down river/wind” comment was actually saying. Was the approach down wind? |
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