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-   -   EC 130 down at the Grand Canyon (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/605275-ec-130-down-grand-canyon.html)

[email protected] 12th Feb 2018 17:01

So, as rotorspeed says - it is a surprise that they operate so late that any rescue can't be completed in daylight.

chopper2004 12th Feb 2018 18:08


Originally Posted by Gordy (Post 10050818)
There is a rescue helicopter in the Grand Canyon, I believe staffed by Papillon. They do not however operate at night as per DOI rules.

Yep its a MD902 Explorer in black and yellow stripes though wonder if the 66th RQS out of Nellis may have provided assistance with a Pave Hawk?

cheers

henra 12th Feb 2018 18:46


Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry (Post 10050310)
He added: "Yesterday, we were hampered by severe weather conditions [and] we had gusts up to 50mph [80kmph]." He said the terrain around the crash site was also "extremely rugged".

Hmmm, 50 mph winds in such a rugged Mountain terrain at that elevation with a heavily loaded helicopter? (assuming the winds didn't just start immediately after the crash).
Are there any restrictions for wind speeds for scenic flights over the canyon?

Nubian 12th Feb 2018 18:57


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 10050837)
So, as rotorspeed says - it is a surprise that they operate so late that any rescue can't be completed in daylight.

From the pictures in the article, it seems a company 130 landed with some sort of medical aid, and it did not look as it was dark......

Rigga 12th Feb 2018 19:40

The police chief said the 1st responders took 20 mins to get there - so they didn't walk, and could not use wheels...

[email protected] 12th Feb 2018 21:08

Henra has a good point - if the conditions were so poor that the rescue could not be made by the company helicopter, why were they flying? There is something not quite straight with everyone's story.

The 10 o'clock news showed another helicopter landing people to give assistance so where was the brownout dust conditions and the 50 mph wind?

212man 12th Feb 2018 21:41


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 10051040)
Henra has a good point - if the conditions were so poor that the rescue could not be made by the company helicopter, why were they flying? There is something not quite straight with everyone's story.

The 10 o'clock news showed another helicopter landing people to give assistance so where was the brownout dust conditions and the 50 mph wind?

Surely you don't get brown out with 50 mph winds?

twinstar_ca 12th Feb 2018 23:51

Flew the canyon 2 years ago in may with a different operator... is very inhospitable when things go south... RIP to the deceased and speedy recovery to the survivors... :(:(

TylerMonkey 13th Feb 2018 00:21

AvSafety network lists this call sign.
This pic is an old archive photo off google , pilot unknown.

https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/11/94/64/62/45460b10.jpg

Heliringer 13th Feb 2018 00:28


Originally Posted by [email protected];10051040[COLOR="Red"
]Henra has a good point - if the conditions were so poor that the rescue could not be made by the company helicopter, why were they flying? [/COLOR] There is something not quite straight with everyone's story.

The 10 o'clock news showed another helicopter landing people to give assistance so where was the brownout dust conditions and the 50 mph wind?

They were flying because in Tourism flying they fly everyday unless it is unflyable. The visitors are only there once normally so you have to take their money while you can. That is the commercial reality. Sad but true.

ChrisVJ 13th Feb 2018 00:29

We were in LV till that morning. We had five days of brilliant sunshine, light winds if any and temps from 21 to 25 deg C. Of course winds in desert 80 miles away might be very different.

We have done the "Night" tour of the strip by helicopter and it was very, very professional. Aircraft appeared to be in excellent condition.

Judging by the video just shown on TV here they were lucky anyone survived. Serious blaze from the machine.

ExGrunt 13th Feb 2018 03:57

NTSB press conference announced:

Media Advisory: NTSB Briefing on Grand Canyon Helicopter Crash
2/12/2018
​WASHINGTON (Feb. 12, 2018) — The NTSB will today hold an on-camera briefing followed by a telephone conference call on the Feb. 10, 2018, crash of a tour helicopter at the Grand Canyon.

WHEN:
1 p.m. Pacific time (on-camera briefing)
1:30 p.m. Pacific time (telephone conference)

WHERE:
City Hall, Boulder City, Nevada
401 California Avenue
Boulder City, Nevada 89005

WHO:
Stephen Stein, Investigator-in-Charge

DETAILS:
Teleconference number:
Toll free, USA: 888-500-6975
International: 719-325-2330
Conference ID: 5950992

jugofpropwash 13th Feb 2018 05:32

Apparently, different rules because the flight was on tribal lands:
Grand Canyon helicopter crashed on tribal land with fewer rules - Chicago Tribune

[email protected] 13th Feb 2018 08:48


Aviation attorney Gary C. Robb said potential factors were winds of 10 mph with gusts of 20 mph, pilot error, mechanical failure or pressure within the company to meet the demand for tours.
Has someone wheeled out another 'aviation expert' to make incorrect statements or is he referring to weather conditions at Vegas rather than in the canyon?

Is this a form of positive discrimination where 'special rules' or alleviation from current regulations are allowed simply because you are dealing with a native Indian reservation? If there is a safety case for limiting flying (curfew) in the rest of the canyon then it should apply to the reservation area as well.

Bell_ringer 13th Feb 2018 11:51


Aviation attorney Gary C. Robb...

Robb said the EC-130 helicopter flown Saturday generally lacks a system to keep it from exploding, denying passengers a few extra minutes to try to escape.
Why do they keep referring to this muppet in accidents?
Let's whip everyone up in a litigious frenzy shall we?

If the US is like other countries, national parks often have restrictions as they are protected areas so limitations for noise, for example, apply.
If it's private land and you're happy to swap some disturbance for money then why not?

[email protected] 13th Feb 2018 12:11


If it's private land and you're happy to swap some disturbance for money then why not?
That's fine, but there is the responsibility for the safety of the tourists who would, anywhere else in the Canyon, have regulated flights. Just because the reservation wants to make money, doesn't mean they can be exempt from sensible safety rules.

I suspect now that many tourists will stick to the more regulated areas for their tours.

Bell_ringer 13th Feb 2018 12:21


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 10051605)
That's fine, but there is the responsibility for the safety of the tourists who would, anywhere else in the Canyon, have regulated flights. Just because the reservation wants to make money, doesn't mean they can be exempt from sensible safety rules.

I suspect now that many tourists will stick to the more regulated areas for their tours.

Unless I am misunderstanding, in this instance, regulated means they restrict the number of flights and type of operations. It isn't necessarily an indication of more or less safe, just that the National park is more fussy to prevent the area being adversely affected by aircraft traffic.
I take it they probably license out the rights to fly in the area so this also has a bearing on cost to operators?

[email protected] 13th Feb 2018 13:52

As i understand it - flights elsewhere in the Canyon are regulated with strict curfew which would ensure safe return or rescue before dark. From what the media are saying, that doesn't apply to the Reservation area along with limits on landing in the Canyon.

Gordy 13th Feb 2018 16:26


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 10051605)
I suspect now that many tourists will stick to the more regulated areas for their tours.

I suspect most will not know the difference or even care.

Many moons ago when I flew tours in Hawaii, I met tourists who just wanted the cheapest flight they could get, and did not care about safety.

[email protected] 13th Feb 2018 18:23

I'm sure that is the case - right up to the point where they are involved in an accident:{Then the lawyers start circling.......


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