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-   -   Mid-air collision between EMS helicopter and light fixed wing in southern Germany (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/604563-mid-air-collision-between-ems-helicopter-light-fixed-wing-southern-germany.html)

Same again 30th Jan 2018 20:21

Anyone who has been flying for a while will have noticed that the younger generation of glass cockpit helicopter pilots spend far more time with their eyes inside than outside. Programming the FMS, selecting various displays and auto-pilot functions are but a few distractions. They rarely have to fly manually these days so seem to have to find things to do. Now we have introduced the iPad into the mixture.

Add to that more traffic and - TCAS or not - I fear that mid-air collisions will become far more common.

[email protected] 30th Jan 2018 20:24

Maybe they should learn from the older generation, fairly recently converted to glass cockpit - use the upper modes and FMS and let the aircraft fly itself while you look out of the window to avoid bumping into things:ok:

SASless 30th Jan 2018 20:55


assume they are all idiots out to kill you and plan accordingly!

So long as each of us include ourselves in the "Idiot" Category e then I fully agree!:ok:

Flying Bull 30th Jan 2018 22:07


Originally Posted by Same again (Post 10036762)
Anyone who has been flying for a while will have noticed that the younger generation of glass cockpit helicopter pilots spend far more time with their eyes inside than outside. Programming the FMS, selecting various displays and auto-pilot functions are but a few distractions. They rarely have to fly manually these days so seem to have to find things to do. Now we have introduced the iPad into the mixture.

Add to that more traffic and - TCAS or not - I fear that mid-air collisions will become far more common.

Only the ones, mostly elderly pilots, which donˋt like new Technology, need more time cause they are not used to and not willing to learn properly.

If you do your homework, i.e. installing and using the training Apps and videos provided and get Producern, you actually save time, cause you donˋt have to look up i.e. frequencies, approaches and so on.
You donˋt have to listen to morsecode anymore to identify VORs i.e., cause the Information is on the screen.
You donˋt have to look inside for aircraft limits, cause you get a warning approaching any or have all the information right in front of you and not splattered around an ancient cockpit.
Lotˋs of gadgets to make life easy, so you can look out and enjoy the flight.
Holding entry, done in seconds, no need to think about which entry to use, no need for calculating time and heading corrections, all done by the computer....
But you have to know your system, where which menue is to be found....

But I also see your point, cause I fly in a MultiCrewCockpit and had the experience, when ATC ordered an hold over a reporting point (Field IMC with a couple airliners approaching, while we were VMC)
I could have flown that by hand but asked my Co to set a holding.
After minutes it still wasnˋt programmed, so I let him look out and had set it up in 5 seconds by myself....
I really like my Garmin ;-)
If you have an iPad, look for Garmin GTN Trainer von Garmin DCI
And Flying the Garmin GTN650/750 von Flight Training Apps, Inc.
and you might understand why

[email protected] 31st Jan 2018 05:42

Flying Bull - you may have seen a video called 'Children of the Magenta' - it describes one of the problems with reliance on automation, specifically the type of scenario you mention.

This is where the pre-planned FMS route is suddenly changed (by ATC instruction for example) - instead of adjusting the flightpath simply by hand, the crew go heads in and start punching buttons - often with some delay to the required route change, and often degrading lookout significantly.

Some of us oldies converted to glass cockpit quite easily and find the automation easy to manage, knowing you can always 'fly-through' if the computer doesn't do what you wanted it to do (or does the wrong thing you asked it to do in error:))



Sas - I always assume I will make mistakes and make allowances for it!

Flying Bull 31st Jan 2018 07:44

Oh yes, was also shown on the typerating course.
Some truth in it, but actually by now, the Autopilot has an emergency function, a button pressed twice will stabilise the helicopter with upper modis heading, ALT and speed, so if you get really disorientated, it will save your butt - unless you fly into something.
But, I think you have to admit, the work changed and we have to adopt.
From flyingskills to System Manager. We still need flyingskills, but most of the time now we have to organize and manage systems. And if you do it by time you now have plenty of time to enjoy the view!
With altering directions from ATC, hey, they are there to help you, nothing easier than saying: unable to comply, give me an inital heading and so on.
Many pilots take everything from ATC as an order - but you can always inform them about your situation, request a different solution!!!!

[email protected] 31st Jan 2018 08:20


With altering directions from ATC, hey, they are there to help you, nothing easier than saying: unable to comply, give me an inital heading and so on.
Many pilots take everything from ATC as an order - but you can always inform them about your situation, request a different solution!!!!
Not sure that always works in busy controlled airspace or following IFR routes/procedures. All very well if you have a problem/technical issue but not if you are slaved to the VMS instead of adjusting course manually and then catching up with the nav kit:ok:

Flying Bull 31st Jan 2018 08:37

You‘re right so far, that normaly you should comply - beeing well ahead of the bird.
But getting caught out, it won‘t necessarily reduce your workload start flying by hand, just keep the option to ask for time/directions in mind, before getting even further behind...
As well, with the AP doing the work, you have also the option to reduce speed i.e. from120 to 60 - which will double the availabe time ;-)

TorqueOfTheDevil 31st Jan 2018 13:23


Originally Posted by Flying Bull (Post 10037239)
As well, with the AP doing the work, you have also the option to reduce speed i.e. from120 to 60 - which will double the availabe time ;-)

Not if the threat is coming from behind you!

And all this talk of using the automatics to manoeuvre concerns me - as we have already seen recently, there are times when a positive manual manoeuvre can save the day when a gentle input by the kit doesn't.

Flying Bull 31st Jan 2018 14:36


Originally Posted by TorqueOfTheDevil (Post 10037480)
Not if the threat is coming from behind you!

And all this talk of using the automatics to manoeuvre concerns me - as we have already seen recently, there are times when a positive manual manoeuvre can save the day when a gentle input by the kit doesn't.

Well, we started off with lookout - and there automatics can give you much more time for just that.
Straight and level i.e. with altitude restrictions, you just press ALT and don´t have to check as often, as while flying hands on, especially in bumpy conditions...
Same with speed, automatics give you the all the speed the bird is capable off without exceeding limits - and you just monitor with a glance and then look out again.
There you might see a conflicting target much earlier, so that a tweak of the heading bug might be sufficant - nobody says, you should avoid close calls by using the AP....
But play around in advance to know wether you have to disconnect - or an override will just work as well, bringing the bird back onto heading when releasing the stick....
It´s all down to knowing your bird in and out so you can decide between the options available.


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