Mid-air collision between EMS helicopter and light fixed wing in southern Germany

[whoknows idont]

Supposedly at least four casualties.

BERLIN (AP) — German police say a small aircraft has crashed midair with a helicopter northwest of Stuttgart. Police in Karlsruhe told the dpa news agency Tuesday the two aircraft crashed outside of Philippsburg, about 100 kilometers (60 miles) from Stuttgart.
Police say it's not yet known how many people were on board the two aircraft or whether there were any casualties.
Police could not immediately be reached for further details.

Police: Small plane, helicopter crash in southern Germany

[skadi]

The helicopter was on a trainingflight with two pilots from the DRF-Trainingcenter at EDSB, the FW with 2POB was obviously on departure of the nearby Speyer airfield.

skadi

[bsieker]

The operater of the helicopter, DRF Luftrettung, released a short press statement, saying that there were two persons each in both the light aircraft and the helicopter.

[Spunk]

News media says that the airplane was on its way from Basel TO Speyer (not as mentioned earlier where it states that it departed Speyer).

[Nubian]

Looks as if mid-airs are on the rise! 3 accidents in the last few months involving a helicopter and an airplane in Europe alone.

What's going on???

[Spunk]

On the news they are saying now that the plane came from above breaking through the clouds 🤢

[skadi]

Originally Posted by Spunk

On the news they are saying now that the plane came from above breaking through the clouds 🤢

Weather was not so bad:

METAR EDFM 231120Z 20006KT 170V230 9999 OVC048 08/06 Q1027=

skadi

[Ascend Charlie]

Breaking through the clouds, eh....

Isn't there a VFR requirement to be 500 or 1000' vertically away from a cloud? Should have given both a chance to see each other?

[skadi]

Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie

Breaking through the clouds, eh....

Isn't there a VFR requirement to be 500 or 1000' vertically away from a cloud? Should have given both a chance to see each other?

The helicopter was well below of the cloud at around 800ft AGL. And in uncontrolled airspace the requirement is "clear of clouds" (for both aircraft).

skadi

[bsieker]

Originally Posted by skadi

The helicopter was well below of the cloud at around 800ft AGL. And in uncontrolled airspace the requirement is "clear of clouds" (for both aircraft).

skadi

That's not quite true. This requirement is only true in Airspace G below 3000 ft MSL / 1000 ft AGL (whichever is higher). Above that, and in all other Airspaces, the cloud separation requirement for VFR is 1000 ft (300 m) vertically and 1500 m horizontally. This was only changed a few years ago, until then you would have been right, as the only uncontrolled Airspace in Germany is Golf.

Here's a nice overview of Airspaces in Germany.

But if the fixed-wing aircraft came out of the clouds, it would (should!) have been under IFR, and if the ceiling was 4800 ft, it would have been in Airspace Echo.

Speyer is uncontrolled and has no instrument approaches (and thus no RMZ), so if it was going to land there it would have had to transition to a visual approach soon after coming out of the clouds. Even at an unusually high descent rate of 2000 fpm it would have taken two minutes in good (10+ km) visibility to reach the helicopter's alleged altitude.

Bernd

[skadi]

Yes, you are right. I was focussed on the low altitude of the helicopter and he was obviously well clear of any clouds.
And one have to be cautious about the words of the eyewitnesses concerning the Piper suddenly came right out of the clouds.

skadi

[9Aplus]

I am sick of such unnecessary, tragic incidents

[Flying Bull]

Well, only limited information available.
I donˋt wanˋt to blame anyone, but experience shows, that it is quite common ( illegal ) practise within the light fixed wing world to fly their „own IFR approaches“ operating under VMC rules....
Was scared more than once from TCAS, warning me from traffic close above, while operating in a helicopter at 800 feet or less above ground, just below cloud....
Always close to smal airfields....

[skadi]

Originally Posted by Flying Bull

Well, only limited information available.
I donˋt wanˋt to blame anyone, but experience shows, that it is quite common ( illegal ) practise within the light fixed wing world to fly their „own IFR approaches“ operating under VMC rules....
Was scared more than once from TCAS, warning me from traffic close above, while operating in a helicopter at 800 feet or less above ground, just below cloud....
Always close to smal airfields....

But in this case the clouds were far above the helicopter and both were in contact with Speyer airfield. The Piper was informed about the helicopter but replied that he couldn't see him. Short time later they collided.

skadi

[Flying Bull]

Originally Posted by skadi

But in this case the clouds were far above the helicopter and both were in contact with Speyer airfield. The Piper was informed about the helicopter but replied that he couldn't see him. Short time later they collided.

skadi

So you have more information about this accident.
Even worse, if both are in contact with Speyer and know about each other but fail to communicate about positions and heights to keep seperation :-(

[what next]

Originally Posted by skadi

But in this case the clouds were far above the helicopter ...

I was flying myself at the time of the accident less than 30NM away from the site. There were no low clouds anywhere in the whole region. EDSB would have been our alternate therefore we listened in on their ATIS and it gave CAVOK conditions. This was certainly not a case of an aircraft "appearing suddenly out of clouds" as the eyewitness(es) stated.

Originally Posted by 9Aplus

I am sick of such unnecessary, tragic incidents

I quess we all are. But I can not think of a solution which would not lead to an outcry among the lightplane/-helicopter societies because it would either mean retrofitting costly avionics or implementing even more controlled airspace.

[Bell_ringer]

Modern TAS isn't that expensive and given the choice of a fatal accident it's quite good value.

[SASless]

I quess we all are. But I can not think of a solution which would not lead to an outcry among the lightplane/-helicopter societies because it would either mean retrofitting costly avionics or implementing even more controlled airspace.

How about something far cheaper and less involvement of the bureaucracy and just teach good Airmanship Principles.

Heads on swivels, listening to the radio and conjuring up a mental picture of what is going on around you, checking above or below you when changing altitude doing cleaning turns if need be, and just plain old paying attention to outside the cockpit.

The Rule is "See and Be Seen! See and Avoid!

[Aesir]

It seems to me in all 3 accidents, the Cabri in UK, the 412 in Spain & this now, that the airplane approached and hit from above and behind in all three cases. It is a almost impossible situation to see and avoid a target coming from that direction.

Someone mentioned a increase in inflight incursion or nearmiss. One has to wonder if the increase of electronic devices are part of the reason. It can hardly be due to more traffic since private flying is on the decline.

[henra]

Originally Posted by Aesir

Someone mentioned a increase in inflight incursion or nearmiss. One has to wonder if the increase of electronic devices are part of the reason.

They surely do help hitting someone else on the same track more precisely...