OH You New York Girls....Can't You Dance The Polka!
 

Blackhawks and Seahawks have different foot prints young Fella!

So what were the two f**kwits sat in the doors doing??? Admiring the view and just saying 'Tail clear left' without actually checking???

WoW....slowest hover taxi in history
 

2 x Pilots + 2 x Observers......impressive :ugh:

You're assuming the two guys in front asked. That tailwheel sure didn't put up much of a fight.

If they were looking for "traffic"....they were "Clear Left!".

I wonder why if they were going to turn right....why did they crowd the left side of the taxi way? After all they knew they would be be swinging the Tail in that direction.

I would have crowded the right side and swung the tail away from the nearest obstacle.

Fortunately no one got hurt.

I am reliably informed that the Black Hawk tail wheel assembly was designed to a MilSpec that requires vertical load tolerances but not so much lateral forces.

The video seems to confirm that.

No, I'm assuming that anyone in the cabin is part of the crew and should be doing their job, not waiting to be asked.

Crab,

As usual....a question for you is how do you know what was said...not said...and if the guy driving initiated the turn incorrectly....how was the crew in the back supposed to prevent that? Rotor Blade Clearance was not an issue.

Does/Did your cabin crew tell you how to drive your Sea King?

I can imagine Jones in the cabin did not ever tell you when to move your Tail Rotor Yaw Control Pedals and at some point assumed you bright enough to know when to do so while taxiing on a heliport....and you would not have been too happy had he done so.

I can see this as being a simple case of a handling error that was avoidable but some complacency crept into the mix as the aircraft was on an open Heliport Operating Area and the guy driving lost situational awareness and made a move that was not anticipated by anyone other then himself.

Put a stop watch to the video and time the interval from the first signs of the aircraft turning to the impact....how long did the crewman have to recognize a problem, and warn the Pilot? I don't think there time enough for anyone to have stopped the unsafe act once that pedal movement began and contact with the barrier.

Sitting in the open door legs a-dangle is all very romantic, until you get crushed from the shins down.

I suspect there will be plenty to be deconstructed from this incident at the safety standaround.

I flew out of wall street on a tourist flight... how would that incident affect operations?? everything get shut down for a period of time until the machine was moved?

Did that just happen?
That looks like a NAVY MH-60S, it's likely that the pilot(s) were used to the short wheelbase version.

SAS - the clue as to how switched off the guys in the cabin were is in their physical positions - as Um lifting points out, not very professional - kneeling in the door or lying on the floor would be safer.

Yes, you would assume that the person with their hands and feet on the controls would know how to ground taxy and a simple, one-sentence crew brief could have put everyone on the same page and prevented embarrassment.

However, I have been in the back of a few US Mil Blackhawks and crew co-operation was woefully lacking - a definite us and them partition between front and rear crew, with the latter being mostly ignored.

Without hearing the intercom conversations, one has to assume culpability lies with the handling pilot and, depending on which side he was sitting, the non-handling pilot - but sharp rearcrew could have realised what was about to happen and mentioned how close the edge of the pad was.

Just lift into a hover an reassamble 😜
Just joking 😉

So many things wrong with this post.

actually wrong or just things you don't like?

Crab,

Pretty broad brush you wield in your comments.

I thought it was the Brown Jobs that had Blimps!

Is it me or simply an optical illusion but at the end before he hits the tailwheel it seems the aircraft is going to go left and the tail starts swinging slowly right and all of a sudden, change of mind from the pilot and the tail starts swing left rapidly as if he realized he was going the wrong way and hit the tailwheel ??

JD

I'm curious why the pilot turned to the right in the first place. The Wall Street heliport is set up like a T, and the helicopter (which was the second of two to depart) was taxiing from the long arm of the T to the H-pad at the end to depart, but that would have required a left turn. See: https://goo.gl/maps/SJaRh6ME2Ns for orientation.

As far as what happened to the pad - it continued functioning normally for the most part. The broken helicopter sat where you see it at the end of the video for about a week.

Each of the pads can be landed on directly, and that's what happened. The H was out of service and the two landing spots closest to the corner also appeared to be closed, but everything else functioned as normal, with the tourist flights (407s, AS350s, H120s) using the long arm of the T and the larger corporates (S76, A139) landing directly on the two spots closest to the terminal.

After a week or so, a crew showed up to remove the blades and fold the tail, and then the whole thing was craned onto a barge and brought over to a pier right next to Newark Airport. No idea if it's being repaired in a hangar at Newark or if it was loaded onto a plane and flown back to Norfolk from there.

Maybe, but like everyone else here, I can only go on what I see - and what I see is a serviceable helicopter being turned (temporarily) into a heap of junk performing a very straightforward task.

Someone in the crew didn't do their job properly - maybe all of them - I'm just considering various factors that could have caused that accident. If you don't consider the possibilities, how can you prevent that sort of thing happening again?

I certainly don't want to be the one to end up in charge of such a fiasco so I am making mental notes to self to ensure my CRM is up to scratch, even when performing 'basic' manoeuvres.

I always preferred the term 'crew cooperation' rather than viewing the crew as a resource to be managed - it seemed to work ok, for me :}

Me too but you have to move with the times - I'm sure it might even be called something else by now!

I have been saved many times by alert rear-crew especially in the SARForce:ok:

Very good assessment SASless - I don't think even a fully operational SAR crew could have been quick enough to scream a warning to the handling pilot to stop him taxiing off the taxiway/runway.

But someone in the crew might have questioned his route to the parking spot and reminded him he was close to the edge before he pushed the yaw pedal.

Are you trying to suggest this wasn't a f**k-up by the whole crew and just blame the pilot?

USN Justice
 

Judging by yesterday's article in the WSJ:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-nav...ons-1516159389,
and reading the micro critiques posted here, lord knows where this might be headed. I mean, maybe this crew needs Clarence Darrow Jr or Johnnie Cochran?

I've watched the video upteen times and it appears to show a slow left turn which would have kept the tail wheel on the runway before a large input of right boot whisks it off. Even if the crewman ('f*ckwit') sitting in the left hand doorway had appreciated the situation he wouldn't have had time to stop it with a warning shout once the right turn started. We of course have no idea what was actually going on inside the aircraft, have we?
At the distance the aircraft was from the video camera it is hard to tell just exactly how close to the edge the aircraft actually was and even if the crewman had already warned the handling pilot there's no knowing if he was ignored or even heard over, perhaps, ATC chatter. In short I think it's easy to jump to conclusions but not advisable without knowing all the facts.

I think you are just making up excuses for the frankly inexcusable - they just had to taxy the helo from the landing point to the parking spot and they are supposed to be a well-trained military crew.

Crm
 

There was an army Blackhawk incident, the blades hit a hangar.
The crewmen on that side during the interview response to the question Why did you not say something if you seen that the blades were going to hit the hangar?

"He never listened to me before. Didn't think he would start then."

Not making excuses for them - I'm sure they can do that for themselves. Of course it was a mess, but I think it would be reasonable to hear what actually went on inside that aircraft before leaping to conclusions. That might have some bearing on whether it was 'inexcusable' or not - IMHO.

So I wonder what the pilot's new callsign will be. Taildragger?

Very good OFBSLF.

Sadly, I stole it from somewhere else...

No, it would be "Trackless" because his @rse was dragging on the ground and wiped out his tracks.

crab, you not suggesting they get the civvies in to do a proper job? :E


Never point fingers, may be you next.

Hardly a good comparison. This was an offshore machine with no rear crew.

Given that they all seemed to be in their normal crew positions at a pretty low level of arousal, what could be going on inside the aircraft to cause such a mistake other than an outbreak of 'dullness'.

Not even the busiest ATC RT should divert the HPs attention from driving the aircraft safely so, unless one of the crew casually mentioned that he had been sleeping with the HP's wife/partner/significant other, just as he was about to manoeuvre into the parking slot, it is difficult to imagine why professional aircrew should have dropped their guard so significantly.

It could have been much worse if the TR had struck as well.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, all the pretending in the world won't stop it being a duck.

I am very well aware that it could happen to me, hence my earlier comments about using it as a wake-up call to self - the flight isn't over until you are back in the crewroom.

How do you know what their 'arousal level' was? I can see two people in the back on dispatcher harnesses who are sitting in their respective doorways. You still haven't given a clue as to how you actually know what else was going on in the aircraft, apart from supposing an 'outbreak of dullness' from watching a distant video clip. You obviously have more intuition than me to see what was happening in all the crew positions (four is it?), on the intercom, on the radio and their state of alertness (or arousal). Maybe I need a new P.C., which can see these things for me too!

All I think I can see is that a sudden yaw input, probably without any warning to the crew, put the tail over the edge, probably too quickly for the 'f*ckwit' in the left doorway to say anything to stop it.

Maybe a proper board of enquiry will determine the facts and dish out the appropriate punishment(s) rather than someone supposing an outbreak of 'dullness' being the cause.

I suggest you have a good rethink, how does the lack of a rear crew give absolution. The only time I've needed a rear crew was for firing the guns and winching. Didn't even have them for sling loading. Mind you they were helpful giving clearances into tight holes for medevacs when trimming the shrubbery with main rotor was a necessity.

There is your first clue - sitting there, feet dangling, no head movement for clearances, no looking under or above (lookout).

The second clue is the lazy left turn, which is what puts the aircraft closer to the edge before the coup de grace of the hard right turn that does the damage.

Are you saying a crew with a high level of arousal wouldn't have appreciated the proximity of the tailwheel to the edge before the right turn or that there was an obvious right turn coming in order to get to the parking spot?

No, I don't have super-intution or a mega PC, but after 35 years in multi-crew military helicopters, I have a pretty good idea how things are supposed to go - and that ain't it.

I think you should just calm down and let those in authority in this case decide on the real facts as opposed to assuming all the things you have - even though you're no doubt an expert after so many years flying experience - which I'm not questioning. Would the slow left turn have taken them over the edge if continued without the sharp right turn?

Maybe the leg danglers in the back might have assumed that the pilots were competent to carry out a simple ground taxiing manoeuvre. Was it a SAR aircraft with a fully SAR trained crew? I have/had over 35 years experience in both large military multi crew and large civilian aircraft but I would still think it right that the crew be judged by the appropriate authorities rather than being declared guilty on the evidence of a video clip on a website.

That is just the sort of complacency I mean - the old safety adage that ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME seems appropriate.

The left turn was clearly used for positioning, presumably to get into wind for the line up to the parking spot - which the right turn was meant to achieve.

The 'authorities' will doubtless use the video clip as part of their investigation and there is an outside chance that there may be extenuating circumstances in the cause of this accident but I won't be holding my breath.

How many flight safety courses and seminars have you been to where the root cause of an accident/incident is immediately obvious from the first look? I've done plenty although some turn out to be even more of a f**kup than first glance might show.

Not being part of the US Military, I won't get to see the accident report or investigation so I stand by my assumptions/observations until proved otherwise.

You've reached your own opinion on it crab and I dare say mine wouldn't be so dissimilar but yes, there may well be extenuating circumstances.

As you say, we are unlikely to get to know the outcome of the investigation but I believe that so much on the internet these days flies in the face of natural justice, no matter how experienced those making the online judgements might be.

If the authorities decide to court martial some or all of the crew then that's as it should be, but if that does happen at least they will have had their day in court, which is just as it should be.