|
Aug 1. 2017: MD Explorer crashed in the austrian alps
A MD902 crashed after takeoff from a alpin hut ( 11200ft ) near Grossglockner summit. The crew and patient received no or light injuries.
Hubschrauber kippt auf Glockner um - tirol.ORF.at skadi |
Hubschrauber kippt auf Glockner um - tirol.ORF.at
google translated. Helicopter tilts to Glockner A dramatic incident took place on Tuesday evening on the Großglockner. A rescue helicopter, which wanted to fly a patient from a shelter to the hospital, tipped to the side after the start. The accident occurred at 8:15 pm in the Großglockner area. The rescue helicopter Martin 4 from the base Matrei in Osttirol had a 48-year-old mountaineer, who had complained about heart problems, at the Erzherzog-Johann-Hütte. Alpine police ensure traces At the start the machine was caught by a strong gust of wind. According to the pilot, the blast pushed the helicopter down, then tipped over, said Roy Knaus, Flight Operations Manager and owner of the helicopter fleet, against the ORF: "First the runners touched the ground, then the machine has tipped over and then has The rotor touches the ground. " http://oekastatic.orf.at/static/imag...n3.5637271.jpg The crash occurred near the Archduke Johann Hut On Wednesday morning, the alpine police were still busy with tracking. During the day the flight accident commission would arrive, according to Knaus. http://oekastatic.orf.at/static/imag...n2.5637270.jpg Doctor suffered nasal bone fracture The pilot and aircreppers were able to free themselves from the helicopter after the incident, they remained uninjured. The emergency physician suffered a nosebone fracture. The 48-year-old patient from Germany was also reportedly hurt by the police. He was flown to Lienz hospital with another rescue helicopter. |
I like the term "aircrepper". I bet they were crepping themselves when this happened!
|
Is there a bone in the nose?
And why was there Police brutality against the patient after the event? Shame on them. I would have preferred to remain uninjured after the incident myself . |
@thomas this is a more accurate translation:
"The 48-year-old patient from Germany was also hurt according to the police" and aircrepper should be something like airborne paramedic |
Wiedhopf - I'm sorry "wit" (even badly presented) is a very British trait, for good or bad. Ask the Yanks.
I apologise.:rolleyes: |
@thomas don't sweat it i got the humour :)
somehow i lost sight of it though in the bad translation and had to provide a better one, it's the internet after all! |
A VERY LUCKY CREW
|
http://oekastatic.orf.at/static/imag...i4.5637274.jpg
Michael Umschaden, Pilot und Stützpunktleiter des ÖAMTC-Rettungshubschraubers C11 in Klagenfurt sagt, als Pilot habe man in solchen Situationen nur begrenzte Möglichkeiten zu reagieren: „Konstanter Wind hilft beim Flug, plötzliche Windböen, die vor allem in den Bergen auftreten, sind aber schwer einzuschätzen.“ Deswegen würde der C11 bei hochalpinen Einsätzen auf das Nötigste geleert, um mehr Leistung zu haben. Michael left the handbrake off. http://oekastatic.orf.at/static/imag...i6.5637320.jpg Der Unfall am Dienstagabend war nicht der erste der Firma Knaus. Firmeninhaber Roy Knaus verlor seinen Vater im Jahr 1997 bei einem Hubschrauberabsturz - mehr dazu in Immer wieder Unfälle in Firmengeschichte Knaus (tirol.ORF.at, 29.4.2012). Bestätigt wurde mittlerweile, dass der Pilot, der am Dienstagabend am Glockner unterwegs war, 2012 in Tirol an einem tödlichen Unfall beteiligt war. Damals war er am Großvenediger in eine Nebelbank geraten, drei Männer am Seil klinkte er deswegen aus, einer davon starb beim Aufprall auf den Gletscher Luckily some walkers found it at the bottom of this gulley and called the AA. http://oekastatic.orf.at/static/imag...i1.5637277.jpg Der Absturz eines Rettungshubschraubers am Dienstagabend am Großglockner beschäftigt nun die Flugunfallkommission. Der Flugbetreiber Knaus schließt ein technisches Gebrechen aus. Ein Amateurfilmer filmte den Absturz mit. The front bumper was damaged but otherwise it was repairable. http://oekastatic.orf.at/static/imag...i5.5637309.jpg Knapp rechts unter der Hütte stürzte der Rettungshubschrauber ab, nur wenige Meter davon entfernt befindet sich eine steil abfallende Felswand. It was towed to the nearest garage at the top of the hill. |
What was a NOTAR doing up there such conditions in the first place?
|
Originally Posted by Phoinix
(Post 9850060)
What was a NOTAR doing up there such conditions in the first place?
Don´t have a rating on MD, only heard someting about coanda-effect with air travelling along the tailboom i.e. - which might give problems in gusty conditions. Watching the video I saw a helicopter, which was still light on the skids, when the PAX-pic up started... And a pilot, who tried to continue to hover, when either a firmer contact with the ground - or a progressive effort to fly away, would have been a better way - thats what I think |
Good to hear everyone is OK for the most part! Any idea what the aircraft registration number is?
|
In the newspaper article it says:
When the helicopter wanted to take off with the patient on board, problems arose. According to the pilot, a violent gust of wind pushed the helicopter down again In the video I see an inversion layer and dust slowly moving away after the crash but I don't see any indications for violent gusts. What I do see is a helicopter pilot having problems finding a solid stand on the gravel. |
The video contradicts the pilot's testimony.
At over 11000 feet he ran out of left pedal on lose and slopy ground, probably paired with a bit of spacial disorientation losing reference looking down the mountain. |
1 Attachment(s)
If the weather was anything like 70 km SE, we had 20ºC and winds 14, gusting 25 kts @7.000ft PA.
902 FLM: |
The Johann hut - is 3.454 m ASL - about 11.300 feet....
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzher...ann-H%C3%BCtte With the chart given - the gusts may well have exceded the demonstrated limits..... |
Looks like the wind was blowing from the valley, i.e. left crosswind at first. However the pilot never put it down on solid ground but hovering around. When he turns further right, he gets himself into tail wind, which pushes him further right (weather cock effect) and this is where it gets out of control. I'd say this is pretty much textbook LTE.
|
Ground handler sure got lucky.
|
Can NOTAR suffer LTE given the jet of air is pushed out of the tail boom?
|
Originally Posted by MikeNYC
(Post 9850290)
Ground handler sure got lucky.
They all should celebrate an additional birthday from now on. What I saw in the vid is pretty much how I would define close call... :eek: |
Amazing that no one was seriously hurt or worse.
Can anyone confirm the flight envelope of this aircraft? |
Originally Posted by Hedski
(Post 9850300)
Can NOTAR suffer LTE given the jet of air is pushed out of the tail boom?
So yes, LTE is possible https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOTAR |
Certainly looks like classic LTE/LTA even though there isn't actually a TR involved - undemanded/unexpected yaw that wasn't/couldn't be brought under control.
Perhaps the best option was to transition to forward flight. Initially I thought such a sharp mountain feature might produce violent gusts but the video shows quite a laminar and steady flow. |
Correctomondo Crab the Notar does have a tail rotor - but it's parked up where the sun don't shine!
I reckon it's a mixture of gusty conditions and light on the skids. Skid digs in and ooops a daisy. |
I see no relevance to a skid digging in or any sign of that . Also no sign of TR fan failure ( the spin would have been far more aggressive ) . Either he just ran out of pedal ( pulling too much power plus wind on tail ) or never gave it full pedal ( unlikely as a professional ) . He would have done better to take off when he realised he was in bad spot and found better place to land properly or find a place he could be light on skids but into the wind .
|
Originally Posted by Flying Bull
(Post 9850209)
The Johann hut - is 3.454 m ASL - about 11.300 feet....
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzher...ann-H%C3%BCtte With the chart given - the gusts may well have exceded the demonstrated limits..... |
https://ibb.co/n2m76a
https://ibb.co/n2m76a Seems they were a bit high for HOGE (not sure of OAT) and ran out of pedal. Nose down the valley would probably have been the best action, in hindsight. The linked graph is the 207 variant, the 206 (if fitted) performing a little less well at altitude. |
Nigel me old stalker you obviously didn't pass German O level or is it "Ö" - Stufe.
Zuerst haben die Kufen den Boden berührt, dann ist die Maschine umgekippt, und dann hat der Rotor den Boden berührt.“ What do you think happened now after reading that............................:ugh: |
TC, did you look at the video of the accident?
you don't need to understand German to see it's spinning out of control instead of a rollover due to gusty winds. And when you do speak German (as I do) you do put question marks comparing the video and the first statement. But the final report will reveal it all I guess. |
Originally Posted by nigelh
(Post 9850825)
He would have done better to take off when he realised he was in bad spot and found better place to land properly or find a place he could be light on skids but into the wind .
|
Correctomondo Crab the Notar does have a tail rotor - but it's parked up where the sun don't shine! |
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 9851175)
so it's not a tail rotor then:) Its a fan blowing air down the tail boom to the coanda slot and the buckety-blower arrangement.:ok:
1. Main-rotor vortexes pushed into the tail rotor by wind. 2. Wind from the tail (6 o'clock) can cause the helicopter to attempt to weathervane into the wind. 3. Wind moving in the same direction as the tail rotor moves air 1 cannot happen with NOTAR, but it is not prone against 2 and 3. |
It's got big vertical stabilisers which can help it weathervane into wind and combinations of rotor downwash and crosswind can affect the coanda flow on the tailboom.
Don't rely on wikipedia ffs. |
LTE???? Har har har, the Bell Spin Team is high-fiving and celebrating the total brainwashing of the junior rotary community. The term LTE is firmly embedded in the skulls, and is brandished whenever some poor coot runs out of power pedal, be it from altitude, bad wind direction, or pilot pushing his luck.
With a NOTAR, surprise surprise, THERE IS NO TAIL ROTOR. Yes, he may have run out of anti-torque power, but it ain't LTE. It certainly looks like a simple case of running out of power, a right turn which doesn't get corrected, the momentum builds up, a bit of nose-down pitching occurs, and splat, or as they say hereabouts, Geschplattenzerden. |
I do apologise most profusely, this reference people are making to a video? I've only just found the link by scrolling thru from the beginning again! Ooops.
As Ascend Charlie states, this is most definitely loss of directional control due to the major gusts he was obviously experiencing. The gusts must have robbed him of most of his coanda effect thus making directional control more sensitive and he moves into pilot induced oscilating in yaw and then the nose dips. Quite frankly, he must be one of the luckiest guys on the planet - if she had rolled to port instead of the way she did go, he'd have fallen a n enormous distance to his untimely end. Correct - NOTAR's don't suffer from LTE (no helos do except OH-58's and some 206's but there is an argument for them losing LTA during certain cross wind/tail wind situations and at the bottom of auto's (even though the TR is in the cone, it's still a tail rotor design but not situated at the end of the tail cone but at the beginning.. Ascend - when did you retire. You must have gone well past 40 yrs of flying? |
An apology from TC .....the whole world has gone crazy 😱
|
AC - It certainly looks like a simple case of running out of power, a right turn which doesn't get corrected - can't make the quotes thingy work today
The second part is clearly correct - how do you come to the conclusion that he ran out of power? LTE is, as has been discussed before, an invention of Bell to explain their TRs aren't big enough but it has become a useful term, along with LTA to explain yaw deviations due to aerodynamic or mechanical (LTA) reasons |
As it is 10 years since I last flew a 902, the memory has faded a bit but I do seem to recall the RFM showing a prohibited sector of about 60 degrees of relative wind direction from one of the rear quarters, above certain altitudes, but like a bus, if we wait a bit, a proper 902 pilot should come along to give a more educated 'guess'
|
Originally Posted by handysnaks
(Post 9851877)
As it is 10 years since I last flew a 902, the memory has faded a bit but I do seem to recall the RFM showing a prohibited sector of about 60 degrees of relative wind direction from one of the rear quarters, above certain altitudes, but like a bus, if we wait a bit, a proper 902 pilot should come along to give a more educated 'guess'
skadi |
Ahh, that's the one. I obviously missed it in my hurry to post before the actual reason is known :)
|
| All times are GMT. The time now is 14:54. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.