Fellow Rotorheads, a serious question re drones.
 

Dear all,
As a long time PPRuNer and fellow Rotorhead, I am hoping i can get some sensible responses on this Forum.

As an ATPL holder, full time pilot and also a licensed Drone Operator, I am finding it increasingly difficult to argue my point with people regarding the safe use of drones (UAV).

When trying to explain that UAV, when operated legally and within the 'Drone Code' boundaries, or within the bounds of my 'Ops Manual' they remain a safe and efficient tool for us commercial operators. i.e. I can map 130 acres in about 20 minutes and produce hi-res images and accurate volumetric and area data whilst 'in the field'. For me to do this requires the following:-
A Drone
Public Liability Insurance
A UK CAA Permission for Commercial Operations (PfCO)
The Permission requires I have an up to date ops manual, an annual renewal of said permission, and carry out full risk assessments including, but not limited to checking Weather, Airspace, Notams, etc etc.

Anyway, I have been asked on a number of occasions what happens if I hit an aircraft with my drone, or have I had any close calls with drones whilst flying a helicopter? (especially in the centre of London)

My answer is I haven't even seen a drone whilst in flight so far.

So, for me to put together some general information and for further Safety Management use, can I please ask you the following questions?

1. Do you know of anyone who has had a close call with a drone whilst flying a helicopter?
2. Have you ever had a near miss with a drone?
3. Have you ever collided with a drone?
4. Have you ever seen a drone whilst flying a helicopter
5. Have you ever had a near miss with a bird?
6. Have you ever had a bird-strike anywhere on a helicopter, even if just a blade etc?

I don't really need specifics but if you care to add that detail that would be useful too.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

My answers:-
1. no
2. no
3. no
4. no
5. yes
6. yes

What's the difference between Q1 & Q2?

1&2 - yes. Twice so far. One on the London Heliroute approaching Isle of Dogs from the West at 1400 ft; one N of Gatwick, heading W into EGKR at 1300ft.

Never hit a drone. Yet.

The answer to 4 - both the above. Also I was asked by ATC, when over London on H7, whether I could see something as they had a primary radar return. I saw a drone a couple of hundred feet above, so it must have been large (not a cheap toy, though clearly not a professional operator)

Had a bird come close once on climb-out. I'd guess 100ft before it turned to avoid me.

Never hit a bird. Yet.

1. Have you had a close call with a drone whilst flying a helicopter?
Yes, while landing off field

5. Have you ever had a near miss with a bird?
Yes

6. Have you ever had a bird-strike anywhere on a helicopter, even if just a blade. Yes, a small one fortunately. No damage, just the sound of it's head passing through it's backside.

edited 1 thanks

No to 1-4.

Yes to 5 & 6.

However, I'm not sure what you can prove with these statistics. Been flying for 28 years, which is a lot longer than drones have been in general circulation - and so the chances of having had a bird strike rather than a drone strike were always going to be much, much higher.

helimutt.

1 & 2 - Yes, Me, inside controlled airspace close to a heliport. An MOR was filed.

3 - no

4 - Yes. The event above plus two other occasions which I did not consider to be a significant risk or a violation.

5 - Yes - more times than I can recall

6 - Yes - At least 5, none of which caused damage to the helicopter.

OH

Thanks for the replies. I'm not looking for statistics as has been mentioned, the data doesn't have enough significant time, but it's just more to compare what the reality is, with peoples perceptions.

1-4 No.
5 & 6 Yes.

NEO

Birds are not a new phenomenon and have been flying around the skies for quite some time. They are also able to see and avoid helicopters which they usually do.

UAV use has grown at an enormous rate in the past 12 months alone. Not all are operated by responsible individuals. I fly SAR and they are becoming an added distraction in the low-level environment. An average day in London will have 20+ drones flying at up to 600'.

One was recently spotted at night operating near our airfield by the crews using NVG. It is only a matter of time before irresponsible use causes an accident. Was not Gatwick closed last week due to a near miss?

1. Yes
2. No
3. No
4. No
5. Yes
6. Yes.

Drones hitting aircraft are not the same as birds hitting aircraft. Drones contain hard bits like batteries and motors whereas a bird, although perhaps heavier is more like a bag of fluid. DfT have co-sponsored a report into this but it hasn't been issued yet although contrary to the article at the link it does include a commercial airliner.
https://www.theverge.com/2016/10/18/...est-uk-dangers

See the UKAB recent bulletin if you want to compile stats on drone airproxes:
https://www.airproxboard.org.uk/uplo...rt%20Sheet.pdf

1-4 no,
5 & 6 yes - including a night birdstrike which was interesting!

1. Do you know of anyone who has had a close call with a drone whilst flying a helicopter? - Yes
2. Have you ever had a near miss with a drone? - as 1 yes
3. Have you ever collided with a drone? - not yet
4. Have you ever seen a drone whilst flying a helicopter - more than once
5. Have you ever had a near miss with a bird? - yes
6. Have you ever had a bird-strike anywhere on a helicopter, even if just a blade etc? - a couple of times, from sea gul over swift to hedge sparrow (they travel around 1.000 feet at night)

1. Do you know of anyone who has had a close call with a drone whilst flying a helicopter? No.
2. Have you ever had a near miss with a drone? No.
3. Have you ever collided with a drone? No.
4. Have you ever seen a drone whilst flying a helicopter. Yes.
5. Have you ever had a near miss with a bird? Yes.
6. Have you ever had a bird-strike anywhere on a helicopter, even if just a blade etc? Yes.


As for drones, from a helicopter during the day, they are almost invisible. You often wont see them until its too late. Ive had operations where ground crew have alerted us to drones present and even with all the crew searching, its taken significant time to spot the drone - especially looking down upon them with a complex background behind them.

Ultimately, no drone operator wants their drone near a helicopter. But are you willing to bet everything on what some unknown person is going to do?

1) Yes - Me
2) Yes - in the airport traffic pattern. It was supposed to be taking pictures of new construction half a mile away.
3) No
4) No
5) Yes
6) Yes - multiple times. As an ag pilot it goes with the territory.

1 - Yes. My company has recorded more than 20 drones operating where they shouldn't (by local regulation) in the last 2 years or so. 2 of those occasions have required maneuvering to avoid collision and another instance led to an aircraft exceedence while the crew were searching for a reported drone shortly after takeoff.

2 - Personally no - but see above.

3 - No.

4 - Yes.

5 - Yes.

6 - No.

Over the same 2 years quoted in 1, there have been less bird avoidances required than drones... Birds have a self preservation instinct. I imagine drone operators lack spatial awareness around their drone (if they can see their drone at all) and presumably think getting close to other aircraft is good footage.

BG

There was a deadly Drone Strike on Germany:

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=58711

1. Do you know of anyone who has had a close call with a drone whilst flying a helicopter? - Yes
2. Have you ever had a near miss with a drone? - Not yet
3. Have you ever collided with a drone? - Not yet
4. Have you ever seen a drone whilst flying a helicopter - Yes
5. Have you ever had a near miss with a bird? - Yes
6. Have you ever had a bird-strike anywhere on a helicopter, even if just a blade etc? - Yes a couple of times

1. Do you know of anyone who has had a close call with a drone whilst flying a helicopter? YES
2. Have you ever had a near miss with a drone? YES
3. Have you ever collided with a drone? NO
4. Have you ever seen a drone whilst flying a helicopter YES
5. Have you ever had a near miss with a bird? YES
6. Have you ever had a bird-strike anywhere on a helicopter, even if just a blade etc? YES

Hey helimutt....please open Your eyes Mate, Drone near misses are on the rise....BIG TIME. Wont be long before there is a serious collision http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/censored.gif

just recently in Ozz http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/eek.gif
https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/36329029...y-beach/#page1

in response to Your questions:

1. Do you know of anyone who has had a close call with a drone whilst flying a helicopter? Yes; 2 x Rotory Pilots & 2 x Fixed-Wing Pilots.
2. Have you ever had a near miss with a drone? Yes; 1, where I had to take immediate evasive action to avoid a collision.
3. Have you ever collided with a drone? No; not yet thank God.
4. Have you ever seen a drone whilst flying a helicopter Yes; 2.
5. Have you ever had a near miss with a bird? Yes; countless times but what has that got to do with Drones?? Birds naturally are flying creatures that belong in the Sky & understand nothing about Air rules, Safety nor Airmanship. So what is Your point exactly?
6. Have you ever had a bird-strike anywhere on a helicopter, even if just a blade etc? Yes; 4 in 28years thus far, again what is Your point in relation to Drones?

Please explain why are You comparing Drones to Birds??? :confused:

1. Yes, several pilots i know, Including one last month that had a drone fly within 10 ft of his external load while he was in a hover trying to set it.

2. no

3. No

4. yes

5. Yes

6. Cleaned one off the rotor blades once. Never even felt it.

Check this out
https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/36329029...y-beach/#page1

Don't miss the obvious point. You appear to be eminently qualified to operate a drone/UAS in a commercial capacity. Your aviation experience and training put you in good stead to manage the risks carefully and generally avoid any potential conflict with manned aircraft.

But now here's the rub. Any dull-witted Neanderthal can buy a drone/UAS with little bother, sit on the end of an active approach and scare the living Jesus out of commercial pilots, or cause any kind of hazard around a myriad of flight operations (recent Fire Fighting drops spring to mind).

There are no aircraft being operated commercially without a fully trained and qualified crew at the controls (well, hardly any) but the same is not true for drones/UAS. The rules are not written for you - they are written for the lowest common denominator, you just get caught up in the subsequent effects.

About near misses with drones...

As long as such idiots exist....

This Is a Fine Example of an Idiot Flying His Drone Next to an Airport! | Aviation Humor

in response to Your questions:

1. Do you know of anyone who has had a close call with a drone whilst flying a helicopter? YES...numerous
2. Have you ever had a near miss with a drone? Yes
3. Have you ever collided with a drone? NO
4. Have you ever seen a drone whilst flying a helicopter Yes
5. Have you ever had a near miss with a bird? Yes
6. Have you ever had a bird-strike anywhere on a helicopter, even if just a blade etc? NO

Los Angeles PD already had a drone strike resulting in a forced landing. In SoCal, I often see drone operators operating with VR goggles or outside line of sight putting nearby aviators, particularly helicopters, at risk.

Absolutely no reason to start getting arsey at all 'mate'. Please show me where i was 'comparing' drones to birds? I wasn't, I was basically trying to find out if the public perception and what I hear as 'rumours' is the same as the reality, when asking the people at the 'coalface' what they're experiencing on a day to day basis. Maybe i'm just lucky. So far i've not even seen a drone when flying a helicopter but once nearly flew into a radio sonde weather balloon that had just been released. I've hit more birds than I can remember but again, maybe i'm just unlucky. Anyway 'mate' I wish you safe flying and hope you hit neither. :ok:

Not quite the type of drone I was referring to. This was a long time ago, and a 2.4 wide fixed wing unmanned 10kg aircraft), not one of the quadcopter, <1.5kg types i was thinking of. Again, peoples perception of a 'drone' differs. The military fly drones. The hobbits or most of us 'licensed' operators fly the quadcopter (DJI) type. Now commonly referred to as a UAV or SUSA or SUA or RPA.

You couldn't have said it better. Unfortunately I meet these idiots on a regular basis and asking if they are aware of the Drone Code at all. Most are not. My view it is down to the point of sale to make sure that at least a copy of the drone code is included and signed before sale. It won't stop second hand machines being used by idiots, or the homebuilt types which have no set altitude limits.

DJI quadcopter won't fly above 1500' anyway, and have an even more limited range in beginner mode. There is a hack to get around these limits but not many people will go to that trouble. I do laugh when I hear of drones up at 11000'. the wind alone would carry them off into the big blue yonder as a DJI type can typically only fly at 30mph or so maximum.

Thank you for the replies which, if nothing else, is satisfying my own curiosity.

Unbelievable. :ugh::eek::eek: A kid was doing similar thing on approach to Tenerife. His videos were quickly taken down and I believe he is in line for a very large fine.

Hey there helimutt....nothing arsey in there at all ole Mate, Your thread title eludes to Drones but 2 of 6 questions relate to Birds, so there must be-some correlation being drawn there me thinks :confused:

Drones are no doubt the single biggest threat to our industry on many differing levels. Collisions with them is just one :eek:

A fellow Pilot just collided with a Drone today (been requested not to give details or country) damage to 1 MR blade as well as a hole in the bubble......:} it's only gonna get worse from here on :{

Underwater Drones would be a much safer option for RotorHeads :8

I threw the bird thing in there just out of my own pure morbid curiosity. Personally I think weather, then wires, then bad training, and then maybe drones are the biggest threats to our industry.
I think the next couple of years will be interesting to see how this all unfolds.

Not too long back I overheard one of the Royal Helicopter pilots reporting a drone passing very close to them at 1100 feet over central London.

It's not a totally new thing, but now more prevalent. A few years back I suddenly saw a radio controlled model aircraft (probably about four foot wingspan, fitted with a tuned pipe) fly vertically upwards, right in front of my aircraft and through my level near Brent reservoir (near Wembley stadium). I was under radar control with Heathrow (Class A airspace back then) flying level at 1,000 feet. I believe it was being flown from fields just north of Brent. There was no time to take any avoiding action.

I have just seen a few youtube videos of some ridiculous flying, in central london and near airports. The problem is no-one will do a thing about it until an accident occurs. Someone was prosecuted a couple of weeks ago but the CAA just tell you to report drone issues to the local police. And its not as if they have extra staff available to find a drone user who can't be seen and can't be found.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but there should be very heavy fines, possibly even prison sentences for inappropriate drone use within controlled airspace and near aircraft etc.

Look up a guy called Michael Button on youtube, he flies his drone all over the place and when brought up about it, he tells people to f off and laughs it off as if its insignificant. He's been reported numerous times but nothing has happened to him yet. Fingers crossed he doesn't cause an accident one day.

heres one from Greenwich i think it is.

https://youtu.be/ejA6kiGMtr4

Extra question?

Q: Have you ever seen a UAV operator operating illegally and outwith the 'Drone Code' boundaries?

A: As often as not.

Looking at the Greenwich video linked, it would appear to have been early hours of the morning, judging by the lack of turbulence and shadow lengths. The wide angle camera makes it virtually impossible to determine whether the flight was at 200 feet or a 1000 feet. Some very nice photography and views that would not normally be accessible to the public.

I am aware of videos posted from the US where drones pace alongside aircraft filming landing and taking off at local fly ins. Nobody seems to object, but I have to assume that the pilots are briefed that a drone may be flying parallel to their aircraft on approach and take off. The drone pilot is a current commercial pilot, so one has to assume he knows what he is doing! The drone in question is a DJI Mavic which weighs around a kilo, so unlikely to cause major damage in event of a collision, but small and hard to spot from any distance away.

Prior planning and common sense are a lot more important than blanket bans which are impossible to enforce. These drones are out there and there are more of them every day. It certainly won't be that long before commercial drone operations start to rival commercial aircraft flights. If commercial operators have to submit to licensing and regulation, how long before they start demanding protected routes and flight areas, especially if they become a majority and are paying out good money to fly? Be careful what you wish for.

There are idiots out there flying private planes with no licence, insurance, or formal training, it isn't just drone operators.

Seems like the UK CAA have had some success recently....

Stratford-upon-Avon man fined over airspace drone flying - BBC News

.

unfortunately only 1 out of thousands.

What if some boffin were to produce a drone jammer? :E

The drones operate using spread spectrum frequency hopping technology on the same frequencies as home wifi networks. They are designed to be far more resistant to interference than home wifi, so any jammer device would wipe out the internet for home users in a 5Km radius before it had any effect on a drone.

A shotgun at low level or a .50 calibre long range shot is the most effective counter measure against these devices if you must remove them from the air.

Birds versus drones?
 

Are you seriously trying to compare birds to drones as a justification for their use?

Sorry friend. Birds are a natural and important part of the entire ecosystem on our planet. There are billions of birds. Birds, while sometimes an annoyance to flying are a completely acceptable risk when flying because they are part of the world we live in. If I hit a bird I feel bad for the bird. If I hit a drone...


Here is the statement that many drone operators don't want to accept: Drones are aircraft operating in a system.

When operating within the system they should:
-Have a transponder with a discrete and identifiable squawk. This should include a permanent code that is attached to each drone. Among other things this will place the drones on the TCAS screens of aircraft operating in the area. This should be a requirement regardless of any of the following.
-Operators of drones should be in direct contact with ATC when in controlled airspace that requires other aircraft operators (pilots) to be in contact with ATC. How will this happen? Phone patch, radio, skype?? I have to be in direct and continuous communication with ATC when flying in a multitude of airspace situations and therefore have to have a functioning two way radio. Why does a drone operator need anything less?
-Drone operators who want to fly in controlled airspace should have to receive a clearance from ATC any time they operate in conditions where aircraft operated by pilots require a clearance. This includes any TFR's established for fires etc. In the past few weeks in Arizona, drone operators have caused major shutdowns of firefighting ops because they are intruding into fire TFR's. The only way that their presence in known is because pilots see them.
Instead of fighting against the system, sneaking around the system, drone operators should embrace the system and have the ability to contact controlling agencies. They might even get permission to operate in some controlled areas. That would be good for everyone. What is not good is the feeling that drone operators want to do what they want, when they want and not have to play by the rules. In other words they don't want to pay for the tech that other aircraft have to pay for. Often times we are reading about the drone issue being about aircraft pilots and owners not wanting their aircraft damaged or destroyed. I hope that a drone owner feels exactly the same way about their aircraft. (In our disposable society, a $50 or $100 drone doesn't really mean anything to most folks. Crash it and that's the end of that, or just order another one.)

Drones are here to stay, I get that and accept that fully. Like other tech inventions that come about, the inventions far outrun the rules needed to make them safe. (hoverboards that blow up for example). Now what is needed is some thoughtful catch up on this important safety issue. A lot of good safety has gone into the system we currently have. Drone operators need to get on board.

Ready..Fire..Aim

Cheers

If every drone was required to be equipped with a transponder and every user required to be in contact with local ATC using a hand held transceiver, how exactly would commercial traffic ever get a word in. The airwaves would be filled with chatter and the radar screens filled with hundreds if not thousands of returns all generating potential conflict reports, because there are no rules of separation between drones. I can't imagine a worse scenario in terms of reducing commercial air safety.

The genie has been released from the bottle and although the popularity of drones may wane, they are here to stay. Mandatory education, registration and licensing of operators at the point of sale is probably the only reasonable course of action, but for the immediate future the problems will remain.

Drone Jammers



https://i0.wp.com/ctstechnologys.com...ison-drone.jpg