NPAS 2017 news
 

NPAS news - 6th March 2017.
NPAS Base Closures | NPAS

With regard to the following quote from that document:

Some points to consider:

1. The only weather conditions (apart from very high wind speeds that would prevent a rotor start and would also probably preclude fixed wing Ops) that would stop an IFR equipped helicopter from flying would be airframe icing. Do these new miraculous fixed wing have full icing protection and a proven record of safe operations in icing conditions?

2. With regard to very high wind speeds, Doncaster has just one runway. What are the crosswind limits for the new fixed wing aircraft? Helicopters aren't adversely affected by crosswinds, from a practical point of view, because they have no need for a runway.

3. On the subject of runways, from personal experience of fixed wing Ops from Doncaster (I was based there when it was known as Finningley), getting airborne can take quite some time if you're in a queue. Helicopters don't need to be held in a queue for a runway and can get airborne straight from dispersal outside the hangar.

4. The police job, by its very nature, requires VMC. If a helicopter can't be flown safely at a very low altitude in order to keep clear of low cloud, what chance would a fixed wing have? Even if a fixed wing could climb above cloud then have a higher cruise speed (for the longer transits now necessary) how will it let down to VMC below to begin the task?

So....how can a fixed wing be "less vulnerable to adverse weather conditions"?

More smoke and mirrors, methinks. It would be better to admit that police air operations are going to be even more limited due to ongoing budgetary constraints. But that wouldn't be good for the careers of those pulling the strings.

What a load of pony. I stopped flying prior to NPAS being formed, and have vowed never to return until it is scrapped.

At this rate, there won't be anything left by the time I get to retirement age!

A truly sorry state of affairs.

That's a rehash of a news release from a couple of years ago? I was just reading it last month.

That man is typical of the current breed of Senior Officer, - two thirds Politician and one third Police Officer. Air support as we knew it, an immediate overhead back up to the officer on the ground is over. Thanks NPAS.

TF

One third TF?

OK. Perhaps a bit less than that!

TF

And according to the news release, closing the bases has made NPAS less efficient, only being able to reach 97% of the population in 30 minutes instead of 98%.

Yes & I believe in father Christmas too! But more critically how many of our major cities outside London have a response in less than 15 minutes, to assist bobbies under threat on the ground? My unit used to do that in about 10 minutes back in the late 90's. And the knowledge that we carried high definition camera's saved many a bobby from a beating then. But I guess officer safety is not important today.

TF

As somebody who spent over 7 years on an air ops unit and was part of that large and proud family that gave us one of the best police aviation systems in the world coupled with making aircraft manufactures listen I am so devastated by what has happened. One of the sad things is that those who should have known better were part of the problem. I always thought that turkeys never voted for Christmas but........! I know that things have to change and that organisations have to strive for value for money but I fail to see where that value is with this system. All it seems to have done is look after a small number of areas and to hell with the rest.

Oh dear,

Rumour on the street is that the vacancy for Safety Officer, NPAS is having to go out again - for the 3rd time in as many months.
And STILL human remains and the accountable manager don't get the message??:mad:
So what does the CAA say about a largish onshore outfit not having a safety officer for the whole of 2017 so far? Let's keep fingers and toes crossed for no accidents then shall we.

Moving onto the next debacle: Who briefed the respective PCC's to swap their all singing all dancing modern helo for piston power props?
Were they warned that the product will almost certainly enter service heavier (much heavier) than forecast. Of course this means it will have a much reduced endurance and coming all the way from Doncaster (?) means its operating radius will be decimated. 20 minutes transit each way before going live on the job eh? Nice one - well thought out lads?

Oh - and what do we have here - they need petrol. And where do they get petrol from, out of hours, methinks? Which airfield will that be then?
Poor PCC's - lamb's to the slaughter.:D

Bad weather and icing issues as mentioned earlier - tut tut. :ugh:

Any more clever ideas from the top, guys?

Who is the project officer for the introduction of FW then? I'd wager a weeks salary they aren't aviators.......

Watch how quiet it goes once the evidence stacks up for FW.
Watch the PCC's squirm and wriggle with this one..............:ok:

Rotary to fixed wing transition
 

I thought the plan was for the 3 rotary bases to stay open until the fixed wing were up-and-running?

Does this mean that huge areas of England will be without a 20/30 minute response until the end of the year?

Has somebody done a risk analysis of leaving places like Norwich out on a limb, and what will the 97% figure drop to?

The fixed wing team are a former GMP pilot and the Assistant Ops Director is a former Army air corps officer. Third member is a sergeant TFO.

The NPAS Board is still upbeat about it:

PA news, do you have the initials for the ex gmp fw driver?

I've now managed to answer my own question wrt to weather limits. According to the flight manual for the chosen aircraft, it is not cleared for flight into known icing conditions, or at least wasn't at the time of publication. The demonstrated maximum cross wind is 25 kts.

The NPAS Board obviously thinks otherwise.

WISHFUL THINKING
 

QUOTE
“This new fleet will be able to stay in the air for longer and will be faster and able to operate over greater distances and for longer periods than our helicopter fleet.... UNQUOTE

Really... adding to those points already made by ShyTorque and TC. Rumour has it that the plank, fully fitted, will have an endurance approximately ten minutes less than that of the EC135 T2+. If rumour is correct, the above statement seems a little like … wishful thinking. The AM, however, will probably argue: not a lot in it, cheaper to run etc. Nice, new, shiny aircraft and a glossy, contemporary, new base at Doncaster. Would be interesting to know: whether, when, if ever the cost of a shiny new base was factored in!

Let us hope it is not yet another police air base, built at enormous cost to the tax payer, only to be abandoned in the next round of cuts; or at the whim of the next or future AM whose perpetual, personal strategy is to ascend the career ladder!

On a positive note, the plank will offer those areas within an hour or so of Doncaster some sort of service, although not quite the same as that given by a helicopter. If, however, the plank ventures too far from home, it will probably struggle to find a place to refuel, out of normal airfield operating hours. It might, also, need to waste costly airborne time, in the event that they are cancelled after take-off, in order to reduce down to maximum landing weight!

Ultimately, it all depends on what sort of service has been promised to the police chiefs and PCCs, particularly those operating in the more rural parts of England and Wales, who have lost their helicopters. Perhaps, they are fully informed and content with the situation under these so called budgetary restraints! Judging by the latest press release and if rumour is correct, it would appear unlikely! Perhaps, as CC Byrne, previously suggested the dreaded drones will fill the gap!

It appears that the name of the game is that NPAS are paying for the P68R to be certified to meet the icing requirement.

I have not had sight yet of any document that states that certification has yet been acheived.

I expect that certification work lies with either Airborne Technologies in Austria and/or Vulcanair in Italy. As the first certifiable airframe only appears to have been completed late last year, will only be delivered in late June, and a 'fully operational' unit is not expected to be on line until January next year it may well be that the process is ongoing.

So "not certified but hopeful" appears the situation. I am no engineer but I assume that adding the weight of de-icing gear will alter the weight, balance and performance somewhat. So any readily available documents will relate to a different, lighter, version of the P68R.

I understand NPAS Warton stands down today, can I just say thank you to all involved in the operation and support of the operation.

PM

I confess to not knowing much about the P68. But I do have some relevant experience, albeit from a little while ago.

The simple facts of the matter are these. Even in the halcyon days when helicopters were operated by individual forces, and were therefore on top of incidents within 5-10 minutes. Truth is that 50% (or likely more?) of jobs benefitted little from the attendance of air support. Now the assets are based even further away from the action, I can't see that ratio improving? I also suspect a greater proportion from the 'useful' 50% could now be handled just as easily by a FW as a RW, since by definition the delay in attendance is likely to mean a more static ('colder') situation upon arrival overhead. Sad but true, and an inevitable consequence of NPAS.

IMVHO, and speaking in very broad brush terms, it was always my opinion that a FW asset, could achieve (about?) 67% of the capability of a helicopter at (about?) 50% of the price. So there is a perfectly reasonable financial case to be made, if cost cutting (or dogma?) is the only consideration.

The only true drawback that a FW had back in my day, (may not be the case now?) was an inability to utilise nitesun effectively. Combined with an obvious inability to hover, this made directing ground troops by only radio commentary, a far more difficult skill. (That's in an Islander at 40kts, I see the P68 advertises a min mission speed of 75kts?) Much easier to simply point the nitesun and watch the good guys just make their way to it.

Obviously electronic surveillance, or comms, is an easy win for FW over RW.

However....

Anyone thinking that an IFR capability, along with an icing clearance, will 'obviously' improve air support coverage, maybe being a little disingenuous, or simply hasn't thought things through. Particularly likely if they are dealing with people holding the purse strings who have no knowledge of flying.

Notwithstanding the fact that once IMC, any descent below MSA, is likely to require an IFR letdown.

I'd be very interested if anyone knows the fuel endurance of one of these birds, when fully crewed and carrying all the internal and external role equipment required. Then factor in how much fuel would be required to reach an IFR destination after a 'job', AND STILL RETAIN the ADDITIONAL fuel to divert to an IFR alternate, make a second approach there and land with IFR final reserve fuel? (Usually 30 minutes.) You may be lucky in some parts of the country, with lots of 24 hour airfields? Other parts of the country, particularly after a lengthy transit, it just may not be possible?

Just my tuppence worth.

I guess that the former Lancashire UEO Steve Fitgerald will be greatly saddened [if not devastated] at the confirmation of this closure but at least he still has his Carribean operation in the Cayman Islands to look after.

Devon and Cornwall Police to launch UK's first 24-hour drone unit
https://www.964eagle.co.uk/news/uk-n...ur-drone-unit/

I wonder if the following influenced their decision? In the year before they joined NPAS, D&C's Air Support budget was £1,379,610 and they flew 1000 hours, giving an hourly rate of £1380. In 2015/16 they paid NPAS £1,673,000 for 537 hours, an hourly rate of £3115.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nf2gdpx4lir6buh/NPAS.pdf?dl=0

I think the future of air support has arrived and the inevitable end state of the 5 base model is around the corner. Rural counties operating drones under the governance of NPAS is the way things seem to be going. I wonder how all the air support, drones and helicopters, will be funded and what chance of survival NPAS will have when there are just a few units in large urban areas and drones run by local forces.

RIP Suffolk Constabulary Air Operations Unit which closes on Friday, another sad day. God help the officers in Norfolk, Suffolk and Cambridgeshire who will get a totally second class service.

I have to disagree with you Pan Euro - I don't think they'll receive a second class service. It is likely to be much, much worse than that.

As a resident and with a daughter in the Force, I can assure you that there is effectively no air support available in Norfolk unless booked days in advance. Plenty of drones and North Sea traffic though.

I agree with a previous post re the five base model, if you live in a large city, you're FAR more important than someone out in the cuds. Someone in Tottenham could look forward to almost continuous air cover, Redhil, Lippits and Boreham. Cromer? Norwich? Yarmouth? Tough ****.....

And the most amazing thing is how few people seem to know or care.

Taxpayers would rather see the huge sums spent on helicopters deployed elsewhere.

Using the money saved to employ officers on the streets is a more cost effective method of fighting crime.

Missing persons can be located using cheap drones and stolen cars are best left to insurance companies.

If the reality tv police shows are anything to go by 99% of helicopter use is for chasing petty criminals.

And just what money has been saved by NPAS to be used elsewhere?

I think you may want to check on the effectiveness of rotary air support before you make your claim about beat coppers being a better method of crime fighting, too.

The answer to your question is in this BBC report from two years ago.

"Border safety"? What is meant by that term?

Bearing in mind that drones need to be flown in line of sight, the effectiveness of their use will mainly depend on the operator being in the right place at the right time. Hopefully most criminals won't think to drive off.

Regarding obtaining the certification for an icing clearance for these new fixed wing, how much is the monetary cost (and how long will this take)? It can't be done in UK, or any temperate climate as far as I can see.

Jay, you're not talking to people who have gained their experience through watching TV shows. You are talking to people who, on the whole, have had many years experience on law enforcement helicopters effectively and efficiently catching criminals and helping save lives. It seems from your comments that you have not been fortunate enough to benefit from that experience.

I seriously suggest that you do some better research than a two year old article from Aunty Beeb.

Reading the copious amount of data on costs and lack of efficiency of NPAS in threads here on Rotorheads would be a good start. Boning up on "drone" use would be next.

night-flying drones?
just saying

The report cited the police commissioners plans two years ago to axe the helicopter funding
which he described as too high.

He said he was not going to pay and that is why Wattisham closed.

Suffolk is a mainly rural county with a low crime rate.

The police commissioner is an elected official and has saved a substantial amount of his budget to be spent elsewhere.

Norfolk did the same and seems to have managed quite well without a helicopter.

It is worth pointing out that most policing took place without air support a couple of decades ago.

No, it isn't.

No, he hasn't - well, not from air support.

No, they didn't.

No, it didn't.

Apart from that, Jay, you were spot on.

Lets not forget that the Boreham base is living on borrowed time. The owners of the quarry want to move them off. Where do they go? Undoubtedly south to look after the big city, even less support for the boys and girls in the Fens. Now where could they move Boreham to apart from south? mmm there's an empty base at Wattisham !!!

The point you are all missing is that accountants look at the bottom line.

Most missing persons are found and the rest are dead as they set out to commit suicide.

Using a very expensive publicly funded police resource and personel is not cost effective.

Stolen car chases ,drunk drivers,petty drug dealers etc are also not going to deliver bang per buck with bean counters.

The incessant throb of helicopters over London is a major source of annoyance for those of us who have to spend time in the city. The regular political marches can be better policed by drones as can security issues.

The reality is that there are many situations where drones can do a better and more cost effective job than a twin turbine helicopter.

Low level power line survey and aerial filming being good examples.

The Wattisham police crew can be deployed back in the job and the five pilots can easily find work elsewhere.

Technology marches on...accept it.