|
It’s on the BBC this morning and it’s shocking
Are people going to be held to account for this? |
Well, it is accountants taking figures without background Data and without understanding.
Was the bird on the ground? From when starts the time? Making the call, explaning where to go and what the mission is? Takes normaly a couple of minutes, well spent cause it is easier to gather Information on the phone compared to beeing in a noisy Environment where you should also do a lookout i.e.. How was the weather forecast, allowing immediate scramble or was it wise to have a look onto the enroute weather? Was a direkt flight possible or were deviations due to weather or ATC necessary? When does the clock stop? First call on frequency or overhead, while the FLIR Camera was locked on the target and already scanning for the last three minutes before beeing overhead? Which distances had to be covered between mission target and Point of scramble? Any wind in favour or against the helicopter? Only numbers you should just trash, thats only good for headlines but has nothing to do with how the buiseness works!!! |
My missus is a Merseyside bobby. When I talk to her colleagues, they ALL say “we don’t bother asking for a helicopter anymore, there’s just no point”
|
Flying Bull, either you don't know who the HMIC are, or your foreign, which is it?
The facts speak for themselves, The man running this (the Chief Supt) has had enough time now to rebuild NPAS and make it more efficient. He has bugg**ed the staff up placing non SME's in positions which require SME's! He has removed nearly all the aviators from the decision making processes. Cops now account for 95% of the board? He's bought FW before he did a proper technical assessment of whether the finished article would work (it hasn't). He has located the assets in places where the shortfall in response times would make the biggest impact on operational performance indicators. No wonder the results are what they are. I would imagine he'll be moved sideways in 2018 by either the CC of W Yorks, or the PCC, so someone with experience in these matters can make the right decisions. One of our jewels in the police crown has been tarnished simply because of bad management. Let's see how they reverse out of this now, but I fear it will now come under the beady gaze of the treasury who will see it as a target for removal as a whole. NPAS will then have a whole new meaning: NO police air service.:ugh::ugh::ugh: |
And all predictable and widely predicted by those in the know on this forum....
|
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 9974265)
And all predictable and widely predicted by those in the know on this forum....
|
@Thomas Coupling
You‘re right, I‘m foreign - stil just throwing numbers in without background info is just not right and a kick in the a.. for those on the front trying to do their best against all odds. I know how long it can take from call to target And all the variables which interfer. To discuss things properly much more info is needed, part of it you supplied. |
Nothing to do with the front line troops FB. It's the NPAS board doing this damage.
HMIC are expert auditers. I alos had 13 years working for NPAS and know exactly where the problem lies. |
Has a study been made into the money lost by NPAS by closing down aviation bases? The one I worked at wasn't finished until the late 1990s and has now been wasted.
|
To discover this 5 years after NPAS launched is bad enough. If it is the case, as posters with specialist knowledge suggest, that they were warned by practitioners that this would happen 2 years or more before that and to have those warnings ignored is even worse.
|
I think this is the only positive comment that I came across:
Among those who lead police aviation, we have found high levels of skill, dedication and commitment. In particular, we recognise the major contributions made by the members of the NPAS National Strategic Board and especially by the current chief constable of West Yorkshire Police and the police and crime commissioner (PCC) for West Yorkshire. Since 2009, the number of police aircraft has been reduced from 33 to 19 and there has been a reduction of about 45 percent in the number of hours flown. There is some evidence to suggest that police officers are making less use of air support because it takes too long to arrive. We also found evidence that suggests that the way NPAS shift changes are scheduled has an adverse effect on aircraft availability at a particular time each day. There are strong indications that the police service now operates insufficient aircraft to provide consistently prompt responses to incidents in all forces in England and Wales. In 2008/09, the police service was operating 33 aircraft for an annual revenue cost of £45m, and initial calculations were that a national police air service could maintain a fleet of 29 helicopters for an annual revenue cost of £37.5m. In 2016/17, NPAS was operating 19 helicopters (with four fixed-wing aircraft still to come) with a revenue budget of £39.6m, an amount that represented a real-terms reduction in funding of about 28 percent since 2008/09. With each aircraft flying fewer hours on average, however, the cost per flying hour has doubled. Many frontline officers made it clear to us during our fieldwork, however, that a response time of up to one hour when dealing with a crime in action such as a burglary is far too long, and that the targets contained within the service level agreement are not fit for purpose. Professional practice requires air support for pursuits whenever possible and at the earliest opportunity, but officers in some forces told us that most pursuits ended before an aircraft could arrive. Some officers said that the delay was sometimes caused by NPAS questioning the necessity for air support in pursuit cases, and this made the work of pursuit and incident commanders more challenging, because they had to manage the pursuit without knowing if air support was a realistic tactical option. In one force, officers reported that the number of pursuits had risen from 100 in 2014 to 336 in 2016, and that debriefing of prisoners had revealed that part of the reason was criminal perception that the police no longer had ready access to helicopter support. Judgments • There is no clear evidence that current arrangements are financially any more or less efficient than when forces managed their own air support, and costs are not shared equitably between forces. • NPAS in its current form is financially unsustainable: the capital investment strategy has left NPAS without adequate funding to replace its ageing fleet of aircraft. It was suggested that some forces were now requesting air support more frequently than they had before, monitoring an aircraft’s travel, and then cancelling the aircraft shortly before it arrived if they were satisfied that the incident could be managed without it. This meant that there was no ‘actioned call for service’ and so no charge would fall to the force, jayteetoo said: My missus is a Merseyside bobby. When I talk to her colleagues, they ALL say “we don’t bother asking for a helicopter anymore, there’s just no point” In 2016, Merseyside Police made the most calls for air support, with a rate more than twice the average for forces in England and Wales. Well, I think that's enough for now. |
Among those who lead police aviation, we have found high levels of skill, dedication and commitment. In particular, we recognise the major contributions made by the members of the NPAS National Strategic Board and especially by the current chief constable of West Yorkshire Police and the police and crime commissioner (PCC) for West Yorkshire. |
When I ( was compulsorily ) retired from a very efficient Air Support Unit, shortly before my Unit joined NPAS, I predicted, and mentioned on pPrune somewhere, that NPAS would not achieve its initial Sales Pitch objectives to provide a more efficient service at a reduced cost, and that in years to come, a dynamic thinking Chief Constable and / or PCC would turn full circle and decide that their Force was not receiving an adequate ( Fit for Purpose ) service, would leave NPAS and buy their own Aircraft, run by their own staff and Police Officers. :rolleyes:
I now wish I had put a few quid on that prediction with Ladbrokes ! ;) Coconutty |
It seems the cops and HMIC know nothing about Helicopters according to this PCC, how absolutely arrogant of him and exactly the problem with NPAS's attitude
PCC questions HMICFRS ‘expertise’ on aircraft following damning report 01 Dec 2017 A police and crime commissioner (PCC) has defended the tasking arrangements of the National Police Air Service (NPAS) after a critical inspection report revealed forces are charged “inequitably”. On Thursday (November 30), Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services (HMICFRS) criticised NPAS for weaknesses in governance, tasking arrangements, and its response times. It made several recommendations for the air service to consider, and HM Inspector of Constabulary Matt Parr said “urgent reform” was needed. Thames Valley PCC Anthony Stansfeld insists the National Strategic Board (NSB) – responsible for setting the strategic direction of NPAS – considered “every possible way of tasking” and the current model, which charges forces every time they request a helicopter, is the most “logical and fair”. “Whatever formula you go to, some police forces are going to say it’s unfair or it’s not as good as it was. You’re not going to please everybody all the time.” Mr Stansfeld, who ran British helicopters on the Falkland Islands and was previously managing director of the company that supplied airplanes to the police service, questioned the inspectorate’s knowledge of aircraft. “My personal view is HMICFRS are not experts to put it mildly,” he said. “Whereas people like myself on the board, and the man who runs it operationally, know vastly more than they do about it.” The report also revealed NPAS was spending large amounts of its capital on upgrading parts of old aircraft instead of replacing its “ageing fleet”, leaving it “financially unstable”. As helicopters reach the end of their life expiry dates, changes to gear boxes and engines must be made, making them more expensive to maintain. However, Mr Stansfeld claimed the helicopters are far from obsolete, noting that the Royal Air Force still operated Pumas bought more than four decades ago. He went on to praise West Yorkshire Police for the set-up of the air service, as he said the force “made a pretty good fist at putting NPAS together” considering the limited resources available to policing. NPAS will soon roll out fixed wing airplanes, which are less expensive to purchase and run, and stay in the air for longer than helicopters. “Unless you need to land vertically, or look down roads between very high-rise buildings in the middle of cities, the actual requirement for helicopters on most of the tasks can be done by fixed wing,” he added. “And so we are moving to some fixed wing as well as helicopters. Whether we move to more depends on how successful they are.” The Ministry of Defence (MoD) recently ordered 29 EC135 helicopters for training, and Mr Stansfeld called on the department to “cooperate” with the police service. Talks between the MoD and the NSB with on the joint maintenance, piloting and purchasing of aircraft have been “without much success”. On response times, Mr Stansfeld said budget cuts have forced a reduction in bases, which has subsequently led to longer distances for the helicopters to travel. “It’s not up to HMICFRS to make helicopters faster, I’m afraid. It’s outside their bounds of responsibility and capability”. He added: “This is not something that it controls, nor does the police service itself really control.” Police Professional :: News :: PCC questions HMICFRS ?expertise? on aircraft following damning report |
Back in post #182 when I posted the figures from 2016/7, I pondered:
How many of those 15,432 hours were taken up with 20, 30, 40 minute transits? The cost all those transit hours is divvied up amongst all the Forces. |
All very much as expected.
I was surprised to learn that the report was written by Matt Parr - a submariner not an aviator - recently joined HMICFRS which sort of explains some of the tangents he goes off on [like promoting drones as if they will be the answer to everything]. This morning an item from Police Professional appeared on the net... ” Thames Valley PCC Anthony Stansfeld insists the National Strategic Board (NSB) – responsible for setting the strategic direction of NPAS – considered “every possible way of tasking” and the current model, which charges forces every time they request a helicopter, is the most “logical and fair”. “Whatever formula you go to, some police forces are going to say it’s unfair or it’s not as good as it was. You’re not going to please everybody all the time.” Mr Stansfeld, who ran British helicopters on the Falkland Islands and was previously managing director of the company that supplied airplanes to the police service, questioned the inspectorate’s knowledge of aircraft” Clearly a snipe at the authors background by a person of some standing. Having met Mr Stansfield at a UK police aviation conference event I would say he has the future of police aviation very much at heart but his own positive stance does not actually resolve any of the core problems. Unfortunately he was the only member of the Strategic board to turn up. That says a great deal about the others. |
PAN
If they've considered “every possible way of tasking” then how in heaven's name did they choose the one they have which builds in unnecessary delays at every turn? |
What really brasses me off, is that what has happened is EXACTLY what i predicted back in 2010 and 2011 and what got me into so much trouble for saying it! It didn't take a "brain of Britain" to work out that by reducing the bases and number of aircraft by over a third you were going to end up with a serious drop in operational efficiency. The remaining aircraft have greater distances to fly and as a result take longer to get there. Our rule of "If it it takes longer than 15 minutes to get there (From the start of the incident) then don't bother you will be too late!" That rule went out of the window! In addition fairly local crews knew their territory and often who they were looking for. All of that thrown away. No wonder the guys on the ground stopped asking for air support!
By 2008 Air support in this Country led the world! 6 years later with NPAS in control we were dead in the water! Yes there are still some very good units, but I would submit that they are good because they are the ones still located close to their main centres of demand. A very sad story, But it is not down to the units on the front line, its down to the Bean Counters that drove the formation of NPAS as soley driven by money saving. The concept that a National Force using the existing fleet and bases could actually improve operational effectiveness never ever came into it. It was only ever about saving money not doing Police work! TF Yes I'm still here even if very wrinkly these days! |
Some more pearls of wisdom from the report:
when we visited NPAS in Wakefield in February 2017, we found that there were only eight aircraft available for operational deployment that day, and one of those had a fault that restricted it to daytime flying only. Two further aircraft were serviceable but deployed on training duties, meaning that the remaining nine aircraft were unavailable because of planned maintenance, faults or technical upgrades. It appeared to us, therefore, that one reason for the reduction in overall flying hours could be reduced aircraft availability when compared with the pre-NPAS period. Regarding the procurement of fixed wing: In February 2015, the board decided to add a fourth fixed-wing aircraft, to allow three to be deployed operationally while one was released for maintenance. However, we found NPAS managers were uncertain where and how these aircraft would be deployed, and what effect their use would have on levels of service to forces. While there was an ongoing programme of work to deal with this, we were surprised that such procurement decisions had been made without a clear plan for deployment of these aircraft and a detailed understanding of the implications. "How are we going to us them?" "Don't worry, we'll figure that out later. Just buy some and we can say we've saved more money." ...and there's more: We were told by NPAS managers, however, that a fixed-wing aircraft will take at least twice if not three times as long as a helicopter to take off, and this might mean that it is more suited to tasks requiring long flying durations than those requiring an immediate response.167 We were therefore somewhat surprised that the board had taken the decision to purchase four fixed-wing aircraft based on the results of a limited trial and with limited analysis of their effectiveness. |
Any of us with any inside knowledge of UK police aviation support knew that the NPAS plan could never work as efficiently as what existed before. In aviation, reducing assets can only result in a reduced capability.
Unfortunately, those brought in to run it were adamant that it could. I used the term "smoke and mirrors" more than once. The smoke has now been blown aside. |
Shy, it wasn't supposed to be as efficient, it was supposed to be cheaper.
Therefore it is a success, and getting better with every cutback. |
I recall it being put forward as both. I said here, that people had made a career by showing that money could be saved by using helicopters (to greatly reduce man hours used to carry out searches, which they do) and that someone else would make a career out of dismantling it all, to prove that money could be saved by doing so.
A case of the cat being out of the bag, rather than a rabbit being pulled out of a hat. |
.... a fixed-wing aircraft will take at least twice if not three times as long as a helicopter to take off, and this might mean that it is more suited to tasks requiring long flying durations than those requiring an immediate response.....
How do they know that? The Chief Pilot was, I understand, based at an International Airport in Manchester where time to gain access to the runway will have been long. I understand that at Teesside - and you can ditto that at Doncaster - it was so quiet that take-off times were short. And this takes us to the point .... they have not flown fixed wing for a couple of years, how do they know? No plan, no tactics and no interim aircraft. There are a couple EO/IR equipped P68 out there they could have on lease.... OK they are not identical or IFR but they could have been doing something with them. Like flying over Norwich chasing hares.... Meanwhile the pilots for the as yet undelivered [or certified] P68 aircraft are on their 900th game of Kaluki.... |
What do you mean how do they know that? A 135 can get airborne in less than three minutes! So nine minutes is a minimum! Look at where the bloody thing is based. Instead of managing expectations the fixed win* guys have over sold it, nice one. Well, when you turn up on a nice miserable day, next to class D that won’t let you in, and the target is hard to eyeball. People will be lining up to stick the knife in. Paybacks a bitch.
It’s gonna be used, it’s gonna be of limited value. The drivers of this only need to be reminded of their over selling of the 15 base model to show that their ability to plan is ****e. Remember the rings anyone? |
How do they know that?
I spoke with a police fixed-wing pilot that did it regularly. OK on a good day a 135 wins hands down most of the time but when you add ice, frost and snow you need to keep the skid-equipped helicopter inside and cosy where the fixed wing [regularly warmed up] can taxi-straight out of open doors. The helicopter needs to be taken out on the Helilift and then started. Yes the statement was sailing pretty close to the wind!:p I think the need for SPIFR on the fixed wings is to get them off the ground at Doncaster to fly to areas where the weather is not closed in. Nothing has changed in police aviation that much. If you arrive on scene and cannot see them through the window because of rain, snow or fog you are going home.... especially in a fixed wing. |
"... it wasn't supposed to be as efficient, it was supposed to be cheaper. ..."
The NPAS concept was originally touted to the then Police Authorities and Chief Constables, as being "More effective ( not efficient ), and at a reduced cost". When, and rightly so, questions were asked to quantify the improvements in Effectiveness, and the reductions in cost, which they ( NPAS ) could not answer, and Forces became reluctant to sign up for a Service with such unknowns,leading to delays in implementation, the Home Office Minister of the Day ( Nick Herbert ) got his BIG Rubber Stamp out, and ORDERED all Forces to comply - and sign up to NPAS. From that moment on (IMHO ) the concept was doomed - it no longer mattered whether the new Service would achieve its Aims & Objectives to be more Effective ( or more effficient ) and cost less,because everyone HAD to join in - regardless ! :yuk: Coconutty |
Taxi straight out of open doors? WTF? It’s a rub hangar!
And when exactly have we had these nasty days. Less than one percent of the time? Get Mr fixed wing on here, I’ll have his pants down. It’s all well and good crowing about it when it’s never been actually been used but let’s see about when it’s operational, the warranty has run out, it’s been over tasked. Oh and where exactly is the anti icing capabilities? I’m pissed off with these so called experts and managers (and journo’s) claiming to know better, doing down the work we do, in cabs that are well and truly passed their sell by date because the retards didn’t bother to PLAN. Who cares if the guys a submariner? He’s obviously very capable and has seen through pretty much all of NPAS’s BS. I can assure you that most at my base are relieved, because now the awkward questions can be asked and answered....honestly I hope. RTL |
Rotate...
Unfortunately I really do not think that the awkward questions once asked will be answered. Yesterdays report will, as usual, be tomorrows door stop. But we can but try. And you never know the rank and file may well be lucky this time... BTW it is a Rubb Hangar. And yes, the ancient one from yesteryear [Falklands and all] was operating out of a tin hangar, and yes its all different these days and we old b****** know nothing about anything but, unfortunately for you, its us that have the wherewithall to shout the loudest without a chance of losing our jobs on your behalf. Win or lose.:sad: And I think, as an independent, it is fair for me to say there have been casuaties among the older generation. Tigerfish was taken out by Alex Marshall as his handle was too transparent. Lost his job on the altar of resisting NPAS. Evidence enough that the ancients are playing their part. |
NPAS ...... debacle
|
It’s all well and good crowing about it when it’s never been actually been used but let’s see about when it’s operational, the warranty has run out, it’s been over tasked. Oh and where exactly is the anti icing capabilities? |
Trust
With the newspaper text now appearing in Lancashire including little gems like "The decision to close the Lancashire’s police helicopter base was made based on flawed information" and "The report also confirmed campaigners’ claims that models used justify the decision to close the Warton air base earlier this year were inadequate."
NPAS is now faced with a perception that it lied through its teeth to close Warton and therefore it stands to reason that it also lied to close down such as Wattisham [before the fixed wing aircraft were ready to replace them]. Probably less of a case with Teesside as it is in a fairly crowded area as far as bases are concerned but that yawning capability gap between Husbands Bosworth and the East Coast, London and Newcastle is all but indefensible. Asuming the P68s ever turn up.... there will be issues with how to get AvGas and there will be a training period involved. So when they do turn up there will be six months in which the logistics of where they can uplift AvGas at night and what they need to put in place to make that work. That is exactly the sort summer weather operations they could have undertaken in the last few months in a non-capable VFR P68 [or a BN2 for that matter] on lease. But what do they seem to have done? I guess there will be options to put in place temporary AvGas bowsers at existing bases including Exeter and Hurn assuming that the ILS will work for them out of hours. North Weald has already been mooted as a fixed wing base but it has no landing aids regardless of time of day. The number of diversion airfields must be severely limited and that [May 2017] mooted "6 hour endurance" is clearly pie in the sky where IFR flight is concerned. |
Does any of this really matter anymore?
The bottom line (first hand) is that more and more police forces are now circumventing NPAS and doing their own thing. NPAS are just an inconvenience. The FW additions will further exacerbate the matter. |
The bottom line (first hand) is that more and more police forces are now circumventing NPAS and doing their own thing. |
I think he means old fashioned police work, with cars, bikes and horses, and buying their own SUAS for photography tasks.
None of which will do what used to be done, but the current system isn't doing that either. |
The Original Concept of a National Police Air Wing was fundamentally a good idea. It would have brought with it economies of scale in purchasing new aircraft. Standardised aircraft & equipment, One Insurance Policy, One fuel supply contract, One maintenance contract, better standard of training etc etc. All aimed at increasing efficiency at the point of delivery. It could have a been 1st Class organisation, had the main aim been that of enhancing delivery and efficiency! Tragically as we all know, and many of us recognised immediately, there was only one aim, that of saving shed loads of money. Efficiency of service delivery was never in the plan, and never could be, given that sole objective. Value for money?? Whats that?? Never heard of it!
Tigerfish |
there was only one aim, that of saving shed loads of money. In 2008/09, the police service was operating 33 aircraft for an annual revenue cost of £45m, and initial calculations were that a national police air service could maintain a fleet of 29 helicopters for an annual revenue cost of £37.5m. In 2016/17, NPAS was operating 19 helicopters (with four fixed-wing aircraft still to come) with a revenue budget of £39.6m |
Quote: there was only one aim, that of saving shed loads of money. That might have been the aim, but they've failed on that as well. From the HMICFRS report: Quote: In 2008/09, the police service was operating 33 aircraft for an annual revenue cost of £45m, and initial calculations were that a national police air service could maintain a fleet of 29 helicopters for an annual revenue cost of £37.5m. In 2016/17, NPAS was operating 19 helicopters (with four fixed-wing aircraft still to come) with a revenue budget of £39.6m Well if that's not grounds for going back to what we had before, nothing is! How do we go about setting up a privatised service, outwith the Police, so that NPAS have no input, but charging the forces directly to give them value for money? Woodvale is still available, we could start off with just one force and see how we get on. All it takes is one PCC to grow the balls to opt out of NPAS, on the basis of the figures above. |
LOL! Shortly after the demise of the Nimrods, I was part of a consortium trying to replace a service previously done by Nimrods, but for a commercial operator. We got as far as picking our aircraft and discussing locations with some lovely airports when the plug was unexplainedly pulled, and we assume that it was a government instruction to pull our funding (£60m).
|
Can a force opt out? How would the legal ramifications be felt? Genuinely interested.
|
You don't need to have a national air support network to save money - as this exercise has proven. 5 forces successfully got together pre NPAS to replace the old T1 fleet and made significant savings as well as standardisation of role equipment. What this proved was that if you let those who know what they are talking about do a job it gets done much better!
Alas I fear it is all much to late now and for those of us who worked hard to provide a proper service extremely disappointing. |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 16:22. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.